Talk About A Coincidence!

Talk about a coincidence!

A debated canonicity

(Previous post here)

Mad1en who Trave1s the P1anet (adding typos to prevent unpleasant comments) is one of the most controversial entries of FFVII lore.

It was included in FFVII Ultimania Omega, published in 2005. Fans have debated ever since if this short story is part of the canon entries of the compilation, as it was written by an external writer that never took part to the realisation of the game.

Part of the fandom thinks it's canon because Square Enix never said it isn't, another part thinks it's not canon because Square Enix never mentioned it again ever since it was published (neither ever provided an official translation nor decided to sell it outside Japan. Quite self-explanatory, considering that "Picturing the Past" has been immediately translated and it's sold everywhere in the world).

The particularity of this novel is that here Aerith states she loves Cloud more than Zack. Not a word is spent to describe how she feels when she understands that Zack didn't cheat on her but endured experimetations for years and died to save Cloud, and that Cloud had created an alter ego based on Zack's traits. These lines started to divide the fans after the release of Crisis Core, that describes a tender and sincere romantic relationship between Zack and Aerith.

Yes, SE never officially said if this novel is canon or not, but I'd like to point out a fact:

The Remake includes tons of references to all the entries of the compilation.

Some examples?

The Avalanche members that show up in Chapter 4 wear the original uniforms of Before Crisis:

Talk About A Coincidence!

Crisis Core references can be found everywhere in the game, for one thing, Zack's last stand:

Talk About A Coincidence!

Dirge of Cerberus was already hinted in the game when Cloud, Tifa and Barret fell in the misterious lab beneath Sector 7 and is going to be heavily referred in the Intergrade. From the trailer we can see Weiss:

Talk About A Coincidence!

There are many references to Advent Children too. For example, Sephiroth has the black wing that he only showed in the movie:

Talk About A Coincidence!

Last order is quite difficult to refrence, as it doesn't add anything new to the story but it's rather a reinterpretation of Nibelheim incident. Anyway, it is mentioned in FFVII Remake World Preview (Square Enix book that includes "Picturing the Past"):

Talk About A Coincidence!

And now talk about the novels:

New characters, like Kyrie, come from The Kids are alright, a Turks side Story:

Talk About A Coincidence!

And here's an example from On the Way to a Smile too: from a dialogue with Jessie it's revealed that Cloud doesn't know the names of vegetables:

Talk About A Coincidence!

...turned out he [Cloud] didn't know a carrot from a gysal green. At first, Tifa was amused that mighty Cloud's new life started with learning vegetables names... (Case of Tifa)

So:

Before Crisis

Crisis Core

Advent Children

Dirge of Cerberus

Last Order

The Kids are alright

On the way to a Smile...

Picturing the Past was written alongise the Remake to clarify the origins of the mural painting in Aerith's room...

They are all abundantly referenced multiple times during the game. Find a more exhaustive list here.

And now it's the turn of Ma1den who trave1s the P1anet.

The author of this novel based himself on the original dialogues and story of the OG and reinterpreted them adding some new elements to create a coherent narration (full of discrepancies that, ehm, have already been disproved years ago, like Aerith's age when she met Zack, Hojo being not really dead, Zack's personality being totally different from Crisis Core, Aerith already knowing about Zack's death, normal souls that should merge immediately in the Lifestream, Omnislash being not Zack's ability...not that this ever convinced anyone).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but...

There are no references at all in the whole game. Not a single word that inequivocally refers to this novel.

Not a word to hint the fact that bad people's souls will rot in the Lifestream and won't be part of it because their spirits are beyond redemption (like what happened in the novel to President Shinra and Hojo).

In the novel Biggs, Wedge and Jessie are tormented by the deaths caused by the explosion of Mako reactor n.1. Jessie feels guilty both in the OG and in the Remake but Biggs and Wedge don't show much regret and the Remake shows that Shinra caused the massive explosion of the reactor, not Jessie. But wasn't the Lifestream supposed to be the place where all knowledges are merged together? I may be wrong but this would suggest that Jessie would have known it after her death.

There are hints that suggest the Aerith of the resolution scene is the one who already died in the OG: she talks to Cloud as if they had passed a long time together, she talks about death and finally disappears in a sparkling greenish light.

Talk About A Coincidence!
Talk About A Coincidence!
Talk About A Coincidence!

It would have been a great scene to put any reference to Ma1den but...it didn't happen.

Well...wierd the devs forgot to mention just this entry...

What a coincidence.

More Posts from Terra-fatalis and Others

3 years ago

I’m not good with Japanese, but these lines sound VERY similar!  

It would be interesting to know if there are others, did you spot any?

FFVII Remake vs Crisis Core comparison


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3 years ago

Crisis Core Transcripts

The long awaited (??? by me) master post of links to the Crisis Core (2007) transcripts. This bs was typed up by hand by yours truly because SOMEONE made UMDs very difficult to rip (<3 u SONY).

Link to gdrive folders hosting transcript documents.

Link to my fancy dedicated tumblr page for this nonsense because I can't not go overboard?? (it is maybe a convenient place to bookmark)

Check below the fold for direct links to specific content.

Complete Transcript                 (  Abridged   /   Unabridged  )

00. Prologue

01. Embrace Your Dreams       (  Abridged   /   Unabridged  )

02. Betrayal                              (  Abridged   /   Unabridged  )

03. Monster                              (  Abridged   /   Unabridged  )

04. An Angel's Dream              (  Abridged   /   Unabridged  )

05. Where Are You?                 (  Abridged   /   Unabridged  )

06. Protect Your Honor           (  Abridged   /   Unabridged  )

07. Departure                           (  Abridged   /   Unabridged  )

08. See You Soon                    (  Abridged   /   Unabridged  )

09. Escape the Nightmare     (  Abridged   /   Unabridged  )

10. Heroes                               (  Abridged   /   Unabridged  )

Credits

DMW Scenes

Yuffie Missions

Other Missions


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3 years ago
terra-fatalis - Terra Fatalis

terra-fatalis - Terra Fatalis

I don't know if this was intentional but I love it

4 years ago

Zerith and Cloti Lines & Quotes Parallels

FFVII Original Game, Advent Children (sequel), and Crisis Core (prequel) are written by Kazushige Nojima…. so it’s not surprised to see how he wrote both pairings in similar way as I found these parallels:

Parallel #1: KOIBITO ( 恋人 )

Zack and Aerith

The two characters deeply involved with Aerith were Zack, who would become her lover (koibito), and Tseng, her guardian.  (CC: FFVII Complete Guide)

One day, Zack is suddenly landed in a church in the slum. His cheerfulness and dependability capture Aerith’s heart and they’re being in a (koibito) lovers-like relationship. Although they can only see each other periodically, their thoughts keep them close in spirit. (Aerith’s profile, CC: FFVII Ultimania, pg. 22)

Cloud and Tifa

“Is Tifa your girlfriend (koibito)?” (Aerith asking Cloud, FFVII Remake Chapter 8)

There are many dimensions to Tifa’s character. She’s like a mother, also a sweetheart (koibito), and a close ally in battle (Advent Children Reunion Files book, pg. 19~ Nomura’s interview)

Parallel #2: SWEET YOUNG LOVE, WHAT SHE LIKES ABOUT HIM 

Aerith about 16 years old Zack: 

“He’s strong, kinda funny, and there’s something special about him.”  (Crisis Core Chapter 5 - First Date) 

Tifa about 14 years old Cloud: 

“You were so small then … and cute.”  (Original Game scene 116 - Cloud Dark Past) 

Parallel #3: SHE DRESSES UP FOR THE PROMISE THEY MADE

Zack and Aerith

For when they meet again on their next date, Zack’s specific suggestion was Aerith wearing pink. Aerith–who continued to wait for Zack’s return–starts to wear pink after making this promise (CC: FFVII Complete Guide–Keyword Collection)

Cloud and Tifa

Believing in Cloud’s promise, Tifa’s waiting to see Cloud become a SOLDIER like Sephiroth. Tifa dresses herself in a pretty and sexy look. Does she do that to spirit up herself in preparing for a touching reunion? (Tifa Lockhart Character Profile from CC: FFVII Ultimania)

Parallel #4: SHE ASKED IF HE KNEW A CERTAIN SOLDIER

Zerith: Aerith asked Cloud about Zack in SOLDIER in the Playground (FF7 Remake)

“Did you have any SOLDIER friends? Any war buddies? So Cloud, you were SOLDIER 1st Class, right? Weird. Just that you were in the same rank with the first guy I ever loved.”

Cloti: Tifa asked Zack about Cloud in SOLDIER via mails (Crisis Core)

“Are there any blond guys in SOLDIER?  Well, it’s just a dream… Any girl would love to have a blond SOLDIER guy protect her when she’s in a pinch. I almost forgot. Please don’t tell anyone in SOLDIER that I asked about the blond guy. Okay?” 

Parallel #5: THEY THINK OF EACH OTHER UNDER THE SKY

Zack and Aerith – the cloudy & azure sky

Zack think of Aerith:  “I wish I could show this sky to…” (Crisis Core DMW Cloud Scene #4: Cloudy Sky)

Aerith think of Zack: “He was like a cloud drifting through the skies. As we peered skyward through the rafters of a heavenless Midgar, we made a promise. And that was the last time we spoke.” (Crisis Core 1st Official Trailer)

Cloud and Tifa – the starry & night sky

Cloud think of Tifa: “I was just thinking about the past.”  (Crisis Core DMW Cloud Scene #3: Starry Night At The Well)

Tifa think of Cloud: “Like the sky that night, the heavens were filled with stars. Did you imagine the sky? The stars were gorgeous. It was just Cloud and I. We talked at the well.”  (Original Game scene 116 - Cloud’s Dark Past)

Parallel #6: PROMISE AT THE NIBELHEIM WELL/WATER TOWER

Zack and Aerith –  CC Chapter 013: I Promise

Aerith: Hello… (calling by phone) Zack: Aerith! Aerith: Finally, got through to you! Zack: Ah, sorry about this but I’m in the middle of something right now. I’ll  give you a call a little later . Aerith: No. it’s okay. You don’t have to. Zack: I understand. I’ll come visit. Aerith: I’ll be waiting. Zack: I’Il see you. It’s a promise.

Cloud and Tifa –  OG scene 6: A Childhood Promise

Tifa: You said you wanna tell me something. Cloud: This summer… I wanna leave this town to Midgar. I wanna join SOLDIER… like Sephiroth. Tifa: Is it tough being SOLDIER, isn’t it? Cloud: Yeah, I probably could not go back to this town for a while. Tifa: Hey, why don’t we make a promise? Mmm… if you really get famous and I’m ever in a bind, you’ll come save me, alright? Whenever  I’m in a trouble, my hero will come rescue me. Cloud: Alright, I promise.

Parallel #7: SHE WON’T BE AFRAID WITH HIM, HE PROMISED

Zack and Aerith – CC Chapter 8: 23 Little Luxuries

Aerith: “When you come back from your assignment, let’s go sell flowers under the sky together. I won’t be afraid if you’re with me.”

Zack: “Yeah, I’ll go with you. That’s a promise.”

Cloud and Tifa – OG Scene 136: Understanding

Tifa: “But, it’s alright even if no one comes back. As long as I’m with you… As long as you’re by my side… I won’t give up even if I’m scared.”

Cloud: “Afterall, I promised. That if anything were to ever happen to you, I would come to help.”

Parallel #8: MUTUAL AFFECTIONS/RECIPROCAL FEELINGS

Zack and Aerith

Zack and Aerith meet by chance in a church in the Slums. They become intimate with each other. (FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Compilation Timeline)

From the boy’s profile

Having fallen into the sector 5 slum church during a mission, Zack has a fateful meeting with Aerith, a young girl who was tending to flowers in the church. They share a “puratonikku koi” / chaste romantic love, satisfied just to be together. Those joyous days seemed like they would last forever… (Zack’s Profile, CC: FFVII Ultimania, pg. 13)

From the girl’s profile

CC shows her meeting and relationship with Zack, and the budding love between them. However, fate would tear the couple apart. (Aerith’s Dengeki Profile)

At that chosen day, she accidentally met Zack, SOLDIER 1st Class, and they were attracted to each other. (Aerith’s Profile, FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania)

The destined encounter with Zack makes them becomes the irreplaceable existence to each other.  (Aerith’s profile, CC: FFVII Ultimania)

His cheerfulness and dependability capture Aerith’s heart and they’re being in a lovers-like relationship. (Aerith’s profile, CC: FFVII Ultimania)

Cloud and Tifa

When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other together. (FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198; story summary)

When Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, together they disclose their feelings for each other. (FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario guide, FFVII Story Summary, pg. 232)  

From the boy’s profile

Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him. (Cloud’s Profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 15)

From the girl’s profile 

She ventured into Lifestream together with Cloud. Amidst the course of him trying to ascertain his memories, they became aware of the thoughts/feelings which each other was holding. (Tifa’s Profile, FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania. pg. 42-47)

In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud’s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim’s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.(CC:FFVII Ultimania, Tifa Lockhart Profile)

For many years, Cloud and Tifa have been holding favor for one another. At last facing the impending final battle with Sephiroth, they confirm together their feelings of desire toward partnership. (Tifa’s Profile, FF 25th Memorial Ultimania)

Parallel #9: THEY GO BACK TO WHERE THEY BELONG

Zack and Aerith – Afterlife

Zack Profile in FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania: In order to help Cloud recover, he assured him from the Lifestream together with Aerith.

Aerith Profile in ACC Dengeki: She joined the Lifestream, but even then she carries on watching over the planet and Cloud. At all times, her first love Zack is always by her side.

Both are mentioned: …She starts to leave, together with the friend who had given his life to Cloud. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness. And so they too go back to where they belong. Back to the current of life flowing around the planet. (FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania–Revised Edition, ACC Playback)

Cloud and Tifa – Living World

Cloud Profile in FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania: With the help of his friends, he defeated Bahamut SHIN, which Kadaj’s gang had summoned. He defeated Sephiroth after his Advent, and returned to Tifa and the children.

Tifa Profile in ACC Dengeki: At the end of a long struggle, she gently welcomes back Cloud on his return home after settling things with himself.

Both are mentioned: “Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together. Everybody would be living back home where they belonged.” (Kazushige Nojima-the scriptwriter, Advent Children Reunion Files book)

Parallel #10: DESCRIBED AS A SINGULAR ITEM / A PAIR

Zack and Aerith described in ACC

For Cloud, they were people whom he can never forget. The two irreplaceable people; Zack, “who was sent to death because protecting me” and Aerith, “who met a tragic fate as I couldn’t protect her” became “the unforgivable sins” in his heart.

(Advent Children Complete Post Card Book)

Cloud and Tifa described in CC

Cloud and Tifa are childhood friends, both born in Nibelheim. When Cloud leaves the village, he calls Tifa out to the water tower and promises that he will become a SOLDIER. At the same time, he is also made by Tifa to promise that he will come to rescue her if she is ever in trouble.

Following this, the pair experience many hardships, such as the Nibelheim incident which also appears in CC, and the Jenova War in FFVII, and through these the distance between them shortens. And in AC they live together, with Barret’s daughter Marlene, and a boy named Denzel. Though there was also a period later where Cloud lived away from them after having contracted Geostigma, they finally reach a commune with each over and return to living together once again. In DC, they rush together to Vincent’s aid, in his battle against Deep Ground SOLDIER.

(CC:FFVII Complete Guide Book)

3 years ago
“But That’s All Right. As Long As I’m With You… As Long As You’re By My Side… I Won’t Give

“But that’s all right. As long as I’m with you… As long as you’re by my side… I won’t give up even if I’m scared.”

 (Pic on pixiv: みなと)

3 years ago
Requested By @paarsetulpen
Requested By @paarsetulpen
Requested By @paarsetulpen
Requested By @paarsetulpen
Requested By @paarsetulpen
Requested By @paarsetulpen

Requested by @paarsetulpen

4 years ago
Tifa Week | Reunion | day Three 🐬🥊💫
Tifa Week | Reunion | day Three 🐬🥊💫
Tifa Week | Reunion | day Three 🐬🥊💫
Tifa Week | Reunion | day Three 🐬🥊💫
Tifa Week | Reunion | day Three 🐬🥊💫

tifa week | reunion | day three 🐬🥊💫

Tifa & Aerith Reunited!

Credit: @marlenadia

Thank you so much @tifa-daily​ for this wonderful event!

4 years ago

A couple of interesting references

Toward the end of Chapter 8 of the Remake - like in the OG - Cloud sneaks away from Aerith's house headed to Sector 7, but Aerith is already waiting for him at the border to Sector 6.

This scene is very important since it's the one where Aerith willingly decides to follow Cloud, the moment that sets into motion her adventure and that will lead her to her destiny.

A Couple Of Interesting References

Fans immediately noticed that the way Aerith appears from behind the debris and the way she walks away recall what happened in the dream that Cloud had in the OG, where Aerith told him she was going to stop Sephiroth alone.

A Couple Of Interesting References

When she starts walking Cloud has one of his headaches, the camera focuses on his right hand (the one he stretched trying to stop her in the dream) and he sheds a tear.

A Couple Of Interesting References

This seems to be another omen of her death - probably it is -, like he previously had at the church, but this short sequence hides also another compilation reference that probably most of western players didn't notice, since it went lost in the English localization:

When Aerith approaches Cloud saying "Because I'm not sick of you yet!", in Japanese she uses a sentence that she already used in Crisis Core with Zack: "I'd like to spend more time with you"(the comparison between the two Japanese lines will sound clearer here). Also her pose, with her hands behind her back, is the same of Crisis Core, and I can't say to what extent it is relevant in this scene, since the Zack-Cloud relation is often matter of debate, but Zack took the note with his right hand too.

A Couple Of Interesting References

I don't think this is casual. At first I thought it was just another Zack-Aerith references like many others during Chapters 8 and 9, but I think this one has a deeper meaning:

Aerith gave Zack the note before he left for Nibelheim, and she apperared in Cloud's dream when she left to go to the Forgotten City:

in both cases it was the last time the characters "spent" time together

in both scenes they promised to go back after they accomplished their missions (very Loveless)

and in both cases...they never came back again.

Aerith's decision to go alone to summon Holy led her to her death, and Zack's decision to go back to Midgar after reading the note - the most dangerous place for him - led him to his death too.

I can't say if this correlation will be relevant in the future parts of the Remake but I thought it was noteworthy, especially because it links up so well with the leitmotiv of Reunion.


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3 years ago

I can't grasp the reason why on this website there's this sort of unwritten rule that doesn't allow you to use the Clerith (or Cloti, I guess?) tag unless you're going to celebrate that one ship (does it work this way for every argument or is it just a FF7 LTD related thing?). Otherwise some self-proclaimed tags-controllers will order you to change your writing, in spite of basic common sense and freedom of expression.

As if this sort of cultic anon intimidations could actually scare anybody.

It's tremendously silly, why can't someone tag clerith if the enterity of their article is going to be about clerith and the tone, despite their opinion, is being polite and unagressive? If someone doesn't agree and really can't live with it, there's a useful, easy tool called "block button".

In a way it's hilarious, if the anon was reacting to OP's recent post, they missed the chance to say something productive and give an alternative answer to his last ask, explaining how and why clerith is the end-game pairing.

But, weird, it didn't happen.

All flash, no substance.

Bruh, we don't want to hear about your negative views about cleriths. Cloud loves Aerith and he always has. He lives in her church because he loves her. He thought of Aerith a lot in OG , On the Way to A Smile, and AC. He went to live in her church. Why tf would he go live in her church if it wasn't for Aerith? There are millions of places he could've gone but he chose the church. You don't have to believe our way of thinking if you don't want to, but don't tag clerith in your posts.

Thanks for your question. I think it's important to have these conversations so we can clear up these misunderstandings. Clouds motivations have been well documented so it's unfortunate that large swaths of the fandom seemingly are still in the dark about something that has been known for quite a long time, and I blame lack of communication. Before I answer your question though I'd like to address the style of it, since I find it amusing that in response to my article concerning productive conversation styles you not only used one of the styles I described, but even the same exact argument. This is a nice confirmation for me that I am right on the money. In my article, I said that the "dishonest inquiry" is the Clerith conversation style of choice. The example I gave was as follows:

The dishonest inquiry: “Why don’t you admit that Clouds actions in AC show that he doesn’t love Tifa?”

You mirrored this approach by saying "Why tf would he go live in her church if it wasn't for Aerith?". The defining characteristic of the dishonest inquiry is that the question isn't asked with the goal of seeking clarification, but as an offensive tactic meant to attack the others position, you're not trying to evaluate your position, you're trying to get others to re-evaluate their position under the guise of a question. If we look at the rest of your post we can see the indicators I described for someone who has reached the last stage of the debate style. "Cloud loves Aerith and he always has. He lives in her church because he loves her". As I noted in my article:

If assertions are backed up, they are backed up with other assertions designed to dissuade rebuttals, rather than investigating veracity.

This "argument" had no actual arguments, it was a meaningless assertion. Stating that you are correct in an attempt to avoid having to actual show that you're correct. "Cloud loves Aerith and he always has. He lives in her church because he loves her": This is what you're trying to prove, you can't state what you're trying to prove as your starting premise.

If you're honestly interested in learning more about FFVII then leave out the baseless assertions, they literally just waste peoples time and makes them less willing to engage with you.

If I had to rephrase your question in a way that's more inviting for a productive discussion it would be something like this:

"Why do you believe Cloud chose Aeriths Church as his hiding place in AC? He thinks about Aerith a lot, what do you think the reason is for that if it's not love?".

The answer to this is pretty simple of course, it's been restated several times, this is not something that is some grand mystery, it's not even an aspect of FFVII that's particularly ambiguous. The reason he stays in Aeriths church is the same reason he's seen lingering at Zacks "grave", it's guilt. As stated in the 10th anniversary ultimania, and several other times:

when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him

While this is an element of the story that has been explicitly confirmed through ultimanias and quotes, this is not an element of the story that was ever in any way unclear, its a direct continuation of Clouds character arc in FFVII. Infact, Clouds mental health issues are the central part of the fake persona storyarc, and is arguably the core of the story. The rough order of events shown in FFVII, on the way to a smile, and Advent children (and also CC) concerning Clouds mental health is as follows. 1: Cloud as a boy want to protect Tifa. 2: Cloud fails to protect Tifa. 3: Cloud and townspeople blame Cloud for Tifas injuries. 4: Cloud internalizes this and beats himself up over his failure to protect Tifa. He develops a fear of failure. 5: Cloud starts acting up, starts wanting to prove himself, and decides to join Soldier to impress Tifa. 6: Cloud fails to get into Soldier, develops an inferiority complex. 7: Cloud is too ashamed of his failure to face Tifa. 8: Cloud fails to save his mother. 9: Cloud fails to save Nibleheim. 10: Cloud fails to save Tifa, again. 11: Cloud fails to save Zack. 12: Cloud develops a soldier alter ego that is everything that he isn't, as a defense mechanism. He hides from his own weakness. 13: Even as a soldier, Cloud fails to save Aerith. 14: Cloud regains his memories in the lifestream, and discovers he did fulfill his promise to come save Tifa. Here we basically end FFVII, and go into on the way to a smile. At this point Cloud has overcome the alien parasite messing with his mind by establishing a stronger sense of who he is. However, now that he's lost his fake soldier defense mechanism he's forced to deal with the past. His past failures haven't been fixed, he doesn't suddenly think he's a great person now, he simply can no longer use his fake persona to hide from his own weakness, and is forced to confront it. 15: Cloud still blames his own weakness for the deaths of Aerith and Zack, he thinks that he needs to atone for his sins, and thinks that the only way to do this is through living* 16: Cloud starts living with Tifa and experiences happiness and peace for the first time in his adult life.** 17: Cloud develops cherophobia and survivors guilt. He feels ashamed for being alive and happy while Aerith and Zack are dead because of him.*** 18: Clouds mental health deteriorates because of these feelings.**** 19: Cloud finds Denzel and sees him as a way to atone, having found a pathway to redemption, Clouds situation improves.***** 20: Cloud is unable to save Denzel from geostigma, and contracts it himself. 21: Clouds mental health worsens again, he failed again, he is unable to save Denzel, he is even unable to save himself, he won't be able to atone for his sins through living. He potentially brought an infectious disease into the house and as a result of his actions Tifa and Marlene will now lose him. 22: Depressed and ashamed, Cloud runs away. He thinks Tifa and Marlene are better off without him, he doesn't want them to see him waste away and die, he feels like he doesn't deserve to be happy and should instead die alone, Etc. Classic depression. (Some quotes concerning the *** are at the bottom of the article)

As for why he thinks about Aerith and Zack a lot, and hangs around the places that are connected with them, what else do you expect? Of course he's thinking about them, they're the people he failed, they're DEAD because of him. Cloud is a caring man, he beats himself up over it, of course he'd be thinking about them. And where else would a man wallowing in guilt and self-pity go than to those places? But the important thing to remember is that none of this is supposed to be seen as romantic. It's supposed to be viewed as sad and negative. Every internal character arc has something to overcome and this is what Cloud has to overcome in Advent children.****** Tifa to Cloud: "have we lost to our memories?" Cloud to Sephiroth: "Stay where you belong, in my memories" A well written story has internal and external obstacles to overcome, and ties the two together. In the case of advent children, the return of Sephiroth is the physical representation of Clouds internal character arc, which is that he should stop living in the past, and should move on. The past here isn't a positive thing he wants to get back to, Clouds past has always been a thing he's ran away from, but then is forced to accept. The past in Clouds case is a bad thing, his failures, and is something he should stop dwelling on. If you've ever seen the lion king, this resembles the scene where Rafiki hits Simba with a stick. "What does it matter, it's in the past", "yeah but it still hurts", "Oh Yes, the past can hurt, but the way I see it you can either run from it, or learn from it".

When Cloud returned to his normal self, he stopped running from the past, but as a result, he started dwelling in it. That's what he's doing in Aeriths church; dwelling in misery.

If we juxtapose Aeriths church with the 7th heaven, we can start to see where peoples misunderstandings are taking place. When some people look at the events of ACC they think that 7th heaven is a place of sadness, which Cloud leaves to be happy at Aeriths church, the place of happiness. The "have we lost to our memories" is then seen as a confirmation of this and that the memory, which they think corresponds to Aerith, is better than life with Tifa. This character arc then concludes with Cloud being happy by finally leaving Tifa behind, and riding off in the sun-set in search of Aerith at the end of the movie. But this interpretation falls apart as soon as you apply context to it, both narratively, and factually, it doesn't fit with with developer quotes, as well as the fundamental story themes of FFVII. 1: If 7th Heaven/Tifa is a place of sadness, then why has Cloud been consistently quoted to experience happiness there? 2: If 7th Heaven/Tifa is a place of sadness, and Cloud leaves at the end of the movie, then why has it been stated to be his promised land, aka, his land of supreme happiness (the reason it's literally called 7th heaven), and why is he stated to return there? ******* 3: If Clouds "memories" are positive, why is the plotarc resolved by Cloud telling the villain to "stay there"? 4: If Cloud is happy at the church, why is he living in self-deprecating squalor? 5: If Cloud loved Aerith and thought Denzel was sent to him by her, why did he abandon him? 6: Do you really think SE would write a story about a "hero" whose main emotional hurdle concerning the past comes down to. "I am sick of the girl I am with, I prefer the one that is dead, so I will get over the past by letting go of the girl I am with, as well as my adoptive children, to go chase the dead girl"? 7: Don't you think this would do Tifas character a tremendous disservice and do you think SE would be that preferential in their treatment? I could go on, but I think the point is clear. While the "Aeriths church is a happy place" interpretation is semi-coherent when looked at in isolation, it becomes exceedingly bizarre as soon as you place it in context. As I am fond of saying, this is not a matter of personal interpretation, it's a matter of lying to yourself vs not lying to yourself. I also suspect that this is the reason why SE changed the ending to advent Children, because people were misinterpreting it in this bizarre way, so they made it more in your face. In context, the following interpretation is much more fitting. Aeriths church is a place of sadness that Cloud runs to because of his guilt and depression. The "memories" line refers to Cloud dwelling on his past mistakes, as evidenced by his constant quotes about needing forgiveness. The character arc of moving on from the past is then resolved when he forgives himself, and as a result, defeats sephiroth, the metaphorical demon of his past. This allows him to return to his place of joy, his promised land, the 7th heaven, with a more positive outlook on the past. Instead of tarnishing Aerith and Zacks memories by wallowing in the past he instead moves on from it, thereby allowing it to become beautiful, which is represented by him planting Aeriths flowers on Zacks grave, and placing Zacks sword in the church. Instead of Zacks grave being the place where Zack died, it is now the place where a hero was born. Cloud has moved on, he has let his mistakes go, and has learned to come to terms with himself. I think it's hard to argue that this version of events is much less shallow, and much more meaningful than the story of a lovesick guy who abandons his partner and adoptive kids to go chase after a dead girl, but that's just me, what's more important is that it's the only version of events that's corroborated by the evidence. Thanks for the question. __________________________________________________

Corroborating quotes (not comprehensive)

* from case of Tifa: "“I’m going to live. I think that’s the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things…"

** Nojima in AC prologue: "“Cloud never had a candid personality to begin with, and although he started living with Tifa and even started working, he obtained a peaceful livinghe’s never experienced before, and this conversely made him anxious. And in the midst of this he contracts Geostigma himself, and rather than being able to protect the people dear to him, he instead was forced to face his own death, and so ran away.” (among other quotes)

*** 10th anniversary ultimania: "when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him"

Aeriths 10th anniversary profile : Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who saved the planet. And in particular to Cloud, as a symbol of his failure to having being unable protect those dear to him, she was a major factor in causing him to close himself off. -Aerith’s 10th anniversay profile.

And more, really this is reiterated constantly.

**** From case of Tifa: "During that time, it was Marlene who noticed a change in Cloud. She told Tifa how Cloud would sometimes space out and not listen to her.

Transporting mail around the world meant he was traveling around his past too. She knew that Cloud was in great pain because he couldn’t protect Aerith. Cloud was trying to overcome that and live on. But, going back to the place where he parted from Aerith might mean that his sorrow and regret was going to tear his heart again.

It was night, and they had closed the bar. Cloud was drinking alcohol even though he rarely did. He drained his glass. Tifa thought about it before going over and filling his glass.

***** From case of Tifa: "Tifa wondered if they became a real family after Denzel appeared. Cloud was clearly taking less jobs. At night, he would always make sure he had time to spend with the children. The silly little conversations he had with Tifa were also back."

****** Reunion files, page 58: "As long as Cloud blames himself for Aerith’s death, he won’t be able to move on with his life. One of the first ideas we had for Advent Children was to have Cloud overcome and resolve that immense feeling of guilt. For Cloud, no one other than Aerith can solve that problem for him."

- Takahiro Sakurai pg. 15 reunion files: After Cloud was told, “Which is it? A memory or us?: by Tifa, he tells Sephiroth, “Stay where you belong. In my memories,” just before he defeats him. I think Cloud finally becomes free at this moment. Deep down, Cloud knew that he shouldn’t be so hard on himself, but at the same time he couldn’t let go of those feelings of guilt for what happened to Aerith and Zack, or the thought that he could never forgive himself for it. But then his companions made him feel better by telling him to let go. ******* "The place where he awakens—- That is Cloud’s Promised Land As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn’t belong here yet. When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma— his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live."

"Aerith lends her power to the people suffering from Geostigma in Edge, and personally provides for Cloud’s recovery. Geostigma is cured. Cloud returns to Tifa and the children."

-  FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Complete Timeline


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Terra Fatalis

Hardcore FFVII fan sharing theories &amp; fanart, sometimes silly stuff ⋆ AuDHD ⋆ She/her ⋆ INTP ⋆ Atheist ⋆ Non-native English speaker, be merciful with my odd way of writing ⋆ Twitter @TerraFatalis

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