Do Not Know How To Word My Feelings On Your Post, But It Feels Very Strange To Say That Because Your

what does nccsa mean?

con contact child sexual abuse, its sexual abuse that didnt involve any touching, examples below

~Just Complex Childhood Trauma Things~

Medical appointments are a trigger

Deep shame from your parents being ashamed

Hypersexuality

Startle reflex to the max

Random kinda happy things make you doubt it happened

Other adults knew something was wrong but ignored it

Matching Sibling Symptoms

Looking back as an adult like “Wow that’s fucked up”

Big inner life makes up for the old one

Hospitals instead of school

Chronic mystery pain

Child to Suicidal in record time

Addiction at a really young age

Hatting the thing ur addicted to because your parent was too

Yelling makes you freeze

Hating when you see yourself doing the thing ur parent did, even if it’s just being loud or using the same phrase

Feeling like you deserve

Feeling guilty for being such a fuck-up

Being “so mature” the whole time growing up

We’re the ‘weird kid’, ‘class clown’ and /or ‘burnout’

Had inappropriate relationships online

Self-harm of some kind

All those mental illness labels

Nowhere feels safe

Not really feeling like a human person

Dissociating the day away

No identity 

Hiding the crying 

Why am I like this? (its the trauma)

Where did the years go?

Having imaginary friends 

Rich fantasy life

Body dysmorphia 

Hate school & hate home 

probably had a shitty first partner

✦ Rainy day apartment details ✦

I lost the posts we wanted to respond to, but I think I remember what we were gonna say

🗝️🏷️ RAMCOA with vague examples, syscourse?

Highly Complex DID

What “Complex” Means:

From what we’ve read, it seems like Complex refers to the specific disorder’s criteria. C-PTSD is PTSD with a different presentation; in this case, multiple/prolonged trauma causes difficulty tracing symptoms in the same ways as other PTSD cases. C-DID is DID with a different presentation; here it’s more intricate mechanisms that lead treatment down another path. Even CDD, which is dissociation into self-states instead of one dissociating self-state. The C just means that thing, plus some extra. There are going to be cases where a Complex patient is actually more simple to care for than a non-Complex patient — it’s just a matter of narrowing it down with more criteria.

Highly Complex:

As far as I know, there are no other communities that use Highly Complex as a label. It’s a specific word to whittle down the topic even further; C-DID but with more specifiers. For HC-DID, the specifiers are programming and structuring. Every human who experienced programming and lived is a RAMCOA survivor. Not every RAMCOA survivor considers themself a HC-DID system. Some survivors didn’t form systems at all. Others don’t think their system qualifies. Maybe people just don’t want to identify themselves this way. Even if it were a medical diagnosis — it’s not — forcing people to use labels they don’t want is rude at best.

What RAMCOA Is:

RAMCOA stands for Ritual Abuse, Mind Control, Organized Abuse. Surviving any of those is enough to belong in the community.

Ritual Abuse - maltreatment (of anyone) including ceremonies or traditions. It can be anything from religious sacrifice to underage marriage.

Mind Control - manipulation of psychological processes. I genuinely don’t know if there has to be negative intent or a specific plan from the abuser to qualify, but even targeted McDonald’s ads make use of mind control (probably not abusively, I’ve never looked into that).

Organized Abuse - maltreatment that involves multiple perpetrators collaborating in their perpetration. If two people meet at a bar and then hurt a child together, that’s enough. It can be elaborate groups like churches or criminal groups, but the only requirement is more than one perp.

It can be one or a mix of any, but it’s still RAMCOA. Usually, the DID community uses RAMCOA to talk about surviving programming (Trauma-Based Mind Control for the purpose of creating a system), and we label our systems Highly Complex.

Extra Criteria:

To be Highly Complex, survivors are usually closest to C-DID. But wait, there’s more!

HC-DID systems also receive:

Programming - I only know of TBMC being used to split off dissociative alters, but I’d budge on that if someone knew otherwise. Abusers control the child (body) by causing calculated suffering until they get the results they want. Perps split off alters with goals in mind for them, and continue to break them until they fit the desires of the abusers. This control extends to every other aspect of HC-DID, and is the reason another label exists at all.

Layers - different dimensions of innerworld. Sometimes this looks like literal other realms inside, but it could also be like floors of a building or planets or other separate worlds. Layers are often assigned a name or cue that allows outsiders to maneuver a system’s landscape from the external world. Perps don’t go in as much as they bring out, by assigned alter or other cued manipulations.

Subsystems - alters with alters, except also programmed. Cues are assigned to each subsystem alter as well, usually related to the subsystem as a collective. Just like programmed singlet alters, subsystems can be arranged by outsiders for memories, tasks, etc.

Sidesystems - kind of multiple systems within the metasystem. Groups might be contained in a separate innerworld pocket, unwilling to communicate with other alters, or otherwise unreachable in the same way other groups are. These sidesystems usually have a collective task, or function as a whole other system in the body. Details of what they do and why are also conditioned.

Programs - conditioning attached to cues. Programs might force amnesia, give body memories, set off chains of tasks, or any other typical or atypical system capability. Programs might be perceived as wires and buttons, or files, or whatever else programmers decide.

Not all HC-DID systems will have the same level of programming. Not all programmed systems will be more “complex” that other systems. Having a term to describe our unique experiences helps a lot of survivors to feel understood, especially if they’re already open about their past.

RAMCOA survivors are kept in a strange position online and irl. We’re used as examples of “unimaginable trauma” and “extreme abuse”, but are largely told to sit down and shut up; we’re too dangerous to speak up about what was done to us, too unbelievable, or too much at all. Finding help is a nightmare, sucks butt for everyone involved, and is fairly necessary for long term recovery. Like many systems, we beat the odds time and time again to call ourselves “survivors” instead of “victims”. Like many systems, we are rejected by most of society. Unlike most systems, we are a secret within system communities.

Being Complex is not being special, it’s just a haughty way to say there are extra requirements. Recovery for many systems is already a stretch. For HC-DID systems, we are healing the impossible.

I don't feel like theres a lot of resources or just even thought given to systems still like. In it. Still in, or adjacent to, the abusive or traumatic environments culpable for the development of this coping mechanism in the first place.

People will talk about persecutors and self-harmful system members, honestly, it feels like pretty much only in the context of a safe or safe-adjacent environment. And I understand. This community is really recovery focused, especially because a lot of people only realize they're a part of it because they're in recovery. When it's such a large portion of the community, its expected that they pay so much focus to it.

But when you are newly in this community, trying to work & communicate with other system members, regardless still having to heavily use that coping mechanism in the "maladaptive" way, and everyone is talking about you and your essential work & role in your system as "that one asshole trying to help, but little do they know the danger is gone and now all they are is a huge prick! ohohohoho! persecutor positivity 💖" it's just. It's honestly just infuriating.

For one! Does your persecutor feel safe or are you just telling them it is? Second. Some of us (persecutors) in the community still have to do our fucking jobs. I feel wonderful for people who can afford different coping mechanisms, whether they are still in the overwhelming environment or not. But some of us cannot. I can't always afford to have a caretaker making sure everybody feels fine and safe, sometimes I just need to get a trauma holder (who really can't fucking be here) out, and keep them out. And sometimes, that means you're gonna be fucking mean.

I just want some sympathy for who I am now. Not some fictionalized ideal of myself that "exists in the future", when this isn't needed anymore. I don't want the only narrative I hear about myself (and other persecutor types) to be that not only am I protecting myself in a "really bad way", but I have no place in this community or even my own system until I am no longer doing that. 'That', of course, being 'keeping my head above the water'. I want people to understand that the work I do can and does help, I'm valuable now, not just "in the future" when I've been fixed reformed into a protector.

I'm probably blowing this specific issue way out of proportion. I just want to feel like I'm not just automatically percieved as "that 'internally-abusive' POS every system has", especially when we as a system know it helps our situation overall, and people do seem to know that persecutors act that way for a reason. I am still experiencing that reason. Yes, there are... times when my expertise should not be employed, I do understand that I can cause unnecessary harm those times, and me and our caregiver get into spats about that kinda stuff. But as our caretaker he also understands that my "bad" actions are necessary sometimes, I am valuable even like this, (and also that he's lot better at gauging whether something needs to be persecuted away than I am, so it can be hard not to get carried away sometimes ime)..... but most importantly, he understands that I am as much affected by the situation we're in as anyone else, and right now, as long as its efficient in just getting us out the other side, anything goes.

I know I'm hurtful. I know that when we do get out of this, a lot of those resources on becoming a """""reformed""""" persecutor will suddenly probably be very helpful to me. But there has to be more sympathy (focus, resources, etc) for people in this community that still have to use these ("maladaptive") coping mechanisms. Constantly talking horribly about members of your community that are not only that way for a very understandable reason, but often have to keep being that way just so they don't end up dead, is. Not very productive or healthy for the overall community imo.

I don't really know what else to say. People still in this shit, people who need to use the skills they adapted regardless if its '"healthy", or pleasant, or palatable, we need this community. We are already here, and every single one of you has been in our place once, even if you were not aware of it. Please. Please have sympathy for me. My actions. Who I am. There is no other way I can be right now. Please.

Other Personality Disorders

This post is about personality disorders that used to exist in the DSM or ICD but don’t anymore. You cannot be diagnosed with these disorders, as they’re not in any diagnostic manual; you would be diagnosed with Other Specified Personality Disorder (or the ICD-11 equivalent) instead.

Passive-Aggressive / Negativistic (PA/NegPD)

A pervasive pattern of negativistic attitudes and passive resistance to demands for adequate performance, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts.

Masochistic / Self-Defeating (Ma/SDPD)

A pervasive pattern of self-defeating behavior, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts. The person may often avoid or undermine pleasurable experiences, be drawn to situations or relationships in which he or she will suffer, and prevent others from helping him or her.

Sadistic (SaPD)

A pervasive pattern of cruel, demeaning, and aggressive behavior, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts.

Depressive / Melancholic (De/MePD)

A pervasive pattern of depressive cognitions and behaviors, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts.

Other Personality Disorders

Turbulent

Turbulent PD has never existed in any DSM. It’s part of Millon’s theorised personality disorder taxonomy, but doesn’t appear in any other literature.

It seems to be an alternate way of categorising and defining hypomania & cyclothymic disorder, and is similar to ADHD, NPD & HPD.

Millon classes it on a spectrum from ebullient personality type -> exuberant personality style -> turbulent personality disorder.

Haltlose

Theorised in German, Russian, and French psychiatry.

Haltlose translates to “unstable” (literally, “without footing”) and refers to a “drifting, aimless and irresponsible lifestyle: a translation might be ‘lacking a hold' on life or onto the self)”.

“Those with haltlose personality disorder have features of frontal lobe syndrome, sociopathic and histrionic personality traits”.

Someone with haltlose PD “lacks concentration and persistence”, and “lives in the present only”. They are “easily persuaded, and [are] often led astray”.

Haltlose PD is similar to AsPD as there is “an inability to learn from experience, and no sincere sense of remorse”. They are often described as ‘lovable rouges’.

(Cullivan, R, ‘‘Haltlose’ type personality disorder (ICD-10 F60.8)’, Psychiatric Bulletin, 1998, pp. 58-59).

Immature

Immature PD was mentioned in the DSM-III as a specifier for Other Specified PD, but removed in later editions.

It seems to be a combination of borderline, histrionic, narcissistic, antisocial, dependent, schizoid and avoidant PDs.

Almeida et al. suggest the following criteria for Immature PD: irresponsibility; impulsivity; unreliability; easily swayed; mood swings; expect overindulgence from others; dependency on others; ability for remorse or regret but it’s “light and fleeting”; inability to manage assets; inability to follow plans; quick to lie; unable to delay gratification; quick to frustration; devaluation of others; risk-taking behaviour; unstable relationships and behaviour; feels both entitled and worthless; attention seeking; recklessness; shyness; ungrateful; over-familiar with others; unable to plan for the future; substance use.

They also suggest 3 subtypes of Immature PD: the dramatic and emotional subtype, the shy subtype, and the mixed subtype.

(Almeida et al., 'Immature Personality Disorder: Contribution to the Definition of this Personality', Clinical Neuroscience & Neurological Research, 2019, pp. 1-16).

Eccentric and Psychoneurotic

These two personality disorders existed only as ‘other specified’ PDs in the ICD-10, where no definition is given.

I am seriously thinking about making a big post about this

Can people stop pushing the idea that you shouldn’t share information about RAMCOA at all? Yeah, sharing detailed information about programming publicly or with people who don’t need it can be dangerous, but it’s already such a taboo topic to the point where a lot of survivors feel like they can’t even speak up about what happened to them. And they have the right to, they endured it.

If you’re saying “be careful how much you share about programming” that’s valid. I’ve seen a lot of people saying that and that makes perfect sense. But “don’t talk about RAMCOA” do people not realize that’s what many of the perpetrators of this type of abuse want? They want total silence. They go to insane lengths just to ensure survivors can’t talk about this. They thrive off secrecy. They’re protected by people’s ignorance. This is a widespread issue that requires a societal effort to put a stop to. How will that happen if people aren’t educated on the fact that this happens, at the very least?

I know a lot of people can use this info to hurt people or get some sick pleasure from hearing about the abuse. But that doesn’t take away the need for this to be heard and known about. Stop silencing survivors.

I learned about compassion fatigue for the first time when I was a 911 operator for two and a half years. Now I’m experiencing it not from a particular job but from moving through life for so many years stuck in the constant “fawn” trauma response. I compulsively gave and gave and gave for so long that I now have literally nothing left. When I first stopped (for survival) compulsively giving to people out of an empty cup I realized I really had no sense of identity outside of helping people... I was overwhelmed with feelings of fear, obligation and guilt... I’m on a journey now of learning to give to myself before I give to anyone else and it’s honesty really hard. It feels “wrong” but I know that’s conditioning from my childhood. I learned I had to abandon myself to survive. Now my body is forcing me to listen to my needs.

Many well known ramcoa accounts say that MC is always done by two or more people. I think it can be done by one or more. Why do so many people believe it’s done by two or more?

TMBC and programming aren’t the same thing either but many see it as such.

TBMC is a type of programming. There are multiple types of programming including TBMC. so TBMC is programming but not all programming is TBMC

TBMC is torture based mind control and absolutely can be done by just one or two people. It doesnt take more than one person to torture a child. In fact *any* type of programming can be done by one person.

I think where people are getting confused is theyre thinking that only trafficking survivors can have TBMC, which isnt true. It has many different forms and there are thousands of different experiences.

Trafficking is Organized Abuse. All trafficking is Organized abuse. But not all TBMC is organized abuse. Parents are *absolutely* capable of brainwashing their children using torture. Its just not going to be as complex as a trafficking survivors.

I know many large ramcoa creators that agree with me and have educated me on this subject as well as the therapists and psychiatrists that treat RAMCOA survivors that have articles that what do you know, agree with me.

If you look at the definition of trauma based mind control and resources on the subject you will see that in the definition itself there is not a quota on the amount of abusers “necessary” to instill programming.

In this article by Ellen Lacter, there are 12 different kinds of Mind Control, in it she uses the term “abuser or cult” which therefore implies that it absolutely can be done by one person, two people, or an organized ring of people.

End Ritual Abuse

Mind Control: Simple to Complex — End Ritual Abuse

Organizations with a wide range of political and criminal agendas have historically relied on coercive interrogation and brainwashing of var

Do you know any credible sources on “programming” specifically? I am unclear on the actual definition, I think I went through some things that could be described that way but I don’t understand the difference between “programming” and “grooming” trafficking victims. I previously have only really heard explanations on what programming supposedly is from untrustworthy, conspiracy-ish sources talking about like government mind-control in pop music, but I don’t want to disregard the whole concept if there is better information or research on it.

The term "programming", as I understand it, has fallen out of academic favor due to the connections you mention. Because of this, its definition is somewhat fluid, but I'd generally define programming as:

"The process of using trauma-induced dissociation to implant specific sets of instructions, messages, learned associations, and triggers to produce desired behavior in a victim. It is, at its essence, an extreme form of conditioning, and relies on the use of dissociated parts (alters) to effectively control the victim's mind."

Another source, ra-info.org (one of the oldest sites about RAMCOA on the internet) puts it this way:

"Programming refers both to the process of teaching part of the mind unquestioned obedience and to the content of what is taught. Thus you can say that a person has been programmed to suicide under certain conditions, or you can talk about a suicide program that is triggered (activated) by certain words or conditions."

Grooming for trafficking purposes may or may not use programming methods, as programming requires a level environmental control that not all situations can muster. Programming also typically involves... Well, weirder, more intense stuff. For example, most trafficking operations are not going to use spin programming, but rely more on basic cause & effect. Additionally, grooming may have more of a focus on positive reinforcement, while programming typically doesn't.

And programming is just one end of a large spectrum that encompasses many forms of conditioning, grooming, and abuse; some cases may have some elements of programming (like manipulating dissociative responses to create alters) while not having the structure necessary to do a good job of it. (That's what our case looked like!) Trafficking organizations may not have the money, access, space, or time to implement full programs.

But sources that mention programming by name do exist, and most give their own definition of programming. I'll throw them under a cut because this post is already getting long.

Dialogues With Forgotten Voices by Harvey Schwartz (2000). Generally a great resource so far, I haven't read all of it but what I have gone through is enlightening. Programming is mentioned all through the book but 330 is where more specifics are discussed. Index starts at page 499 so you can peruse topics by your own discretion. His other book, The Alchemy of Wolves & Sheep, covers similar ground (RAMCOA) but with a unique focus (forced perpetration). It's in my pinned post.

Both of Alison Miller's Books, Healing the Unimaginable (2011) and Becoming Yourself (2014). Many survivors swear by these books, and they use the term "programming" throughout. I haven't read these yet but you'll see them referenced constantly.

Safe Passage to Healing by Chrystine Oksana (1994). Another "classic", another book I haven't touched yet. Discusses programming quite a bit and is meant for survivors.

Many of Steven Hassan's works use programming in a slightly more "casual" manner from what I can see—referring to brainwashing at any age in the contexts of cults, as that's Hassan's focus—but helpful for many regardless.

Spin Programming: A Newly Uncovered Technique of Systematic Mind Control by John Lovern (1993) and Common Programs Observed in Survivors of Satanic Ritualistic Abuse by Neswald, Gould, and Graham-Costain (1991). Lumping these together despite the different authors because they're in my "I can't 100% trust these but the information is, in general, useful and many survivors share these" category. The first also includes sketches by survivors, but we're partial to the second one because we don't have spin programming.

On top of this list, there are HUNDREDS of sources that do not use the term "programming" but regardless, refer to similar processes. Too many to list. I hope this is a good starting point though!