Is It Just Me Or Does Fate's Mordred Never Receive Any Hate For Starting Her Rebellion, Which Brought

What's the difference between Proto Morgan Le Fay and her Fate counterpart? It sounds like Proto Morgan is Chaotic Neutral while Fate's version is straight up evil. Is it because Artoria being a woman who gets to be the King made Fate Morgan even more morally depraved while Arthur being a man means Proto Morgan can't really argue against that fact and it isn't as bad to the point that it could drastically alter her morals? (That being said, they're both still a little loopy in the head.)

So, you’re right. Proto Morgan Le Fey was basically Chaotic Neutral. She’s...not mentally sound in the slightest, but I think that Artoria’s appearance DID push her over the edge. While Arthur looks nothing like Uther, That more helped her hatred not pass to him so much, and she did sometimes help, though she resented that Arthur seemed to just get everything and was the cause of their mother’s death. Still, it’s the law of succession, and she was, while originally hostile, at least willing to eventually judge Arthur for himself. Though...some news about him is why she softens and starts being a little more helpful.

For Fate Morgan, the fact that Artoria was a woman...made it just not fair. Why was SHE the one who was given everything, power, love, success, and even the crown, while Morgan had been forced to watch her happy, loving family get ripped to shreds because of the lust of one man, lost her father, lost her mother, was married off because she was inconvenient, and now she has to watch as some woman who looks so much like her is given a life she longed for at the hands of Merlin, who helped Uther. 

Honestly, I think half the reason Artoria never really went after Fate Morgan is that she couldn’t bring herself to hate the woman, regardless of the trouble she caused.

True Name: Uther Pendragon Class: Saber Gender: Male Alignment: Lawful Good (believes he is Lawful Neutral) Parameter: Strength: B Endurance: A Agility: C Mana: E Luck: C NP: B+

History: Uther was born as the youngest of three brothers, himself, the Black Dragon Vortigern and the Paranoid Prince Ambrousis. After their father Constantine was died, the eldest son Ambrousis took the throne at the young age of 14. Due to an innate paranoia, the treachery of royal politics and persistent rumors of his father having been poisoned, Ambrousis sought to weed out all potential traitors and dangers to himself In his madness, he killed civilians for speaking unfavorably and nobles for dealing with other nations.

Unable to tolerate his eldest brother’s actions, Uther, alongside the middle child Vortigern, staged a rebellion against Ambrousis, uniting several lords and knights across Britan to wage war against his enthroned and madden kin. Through numerous bloody battles, he forced Ambrousis to met his demise by his own hand, with no small amount of grief and sadness. Soon after, the lords of the land agreed to name him King, something that would come to frustrate his last living brother.

Throughout his reign, he came into conflict with his neighbors/arch enemies the Saxxons. The two kingdoms went to war with each other many, many times, almost always with Uther just barely managing to edge a victory. During these many wars, he was always noted to be seen wandering near lakeside, gazing wistfully out upon the water. One night, on the last of his many walks to the lakes of the land, returned with two twin newborns in hand, girls who he would name Morgan and Morgause and claim as his children. No one is quite certain who the mother of these two was…

Later in life, as the strain of his life came to haunt him, he began to seek an heir to which take his throne upon his increasingly likely death. However, due to lacking a wife and having only daughters who could not be accepted by his kingdom, he looked to his old and trusted friend Merlin. Together, they hatched a plan for Uther to impregnate the lovely Lady Igraine with the king impersonating her lover through Merlin’s magic. Alas, though the child was blessed with the blood of a dragon, it was also yet another daughter, named Arturia. Distraught and despondent, Uther gave up his quest for a successor and left the child in Merlin’s care.

This turn of events alongside the death of his legitimate child Morgause left Uther in the worst of health. His body deteriorated day after day, for years on end until one day, seven years after those events, he died due to a combination of sickness and poison by his lifelong enemies….*

Personality: Quite unlike his successor, Uther is open and friendly man who ruled through trust and familiarity, while not being the best at administration. He warms the hearts of both his retainers and his people with his honesty and openness. Alas, this warmth also lends itself to a certain…fiery temperament in battle.

A man tried to uphold honor and dignity during his life, helping define the code of honor that many among the succeeding generation would uphold as their standard. That said, he could not always uphold it as the conception of his youngest child will tell you. 

Below his surface though, he holds a great many regrets. He laments his killing of his brother, his inability to stop the tyranny of his other sibling, his failure to properly raise the children under his care, his shame at the manipulation of Igraine born from a moment’s weakness and lust and his perceived abandonment of his youngest child. Because of this, he feels rather uncomfortable around most British servants, especially those from his era as it reminds him of his failures. Though, he still trusts and respects Merlin (even holding the distinction of being one of the few people able to catch the flower magus off guard).

He also regrets not having tried to defy the laws of inheritness during his time, as he sees this inaction having caused the many conflicts and pain of his successors.

Noble Phantasm:

Flame Sword of the Dragon King: Caliburn Classification: Anti-Personnel Rank: B+

Born from the legends that he himself wielded Caliburn before lodging it in it’s infamous stone as well as the misconception that he himself had dragon blood- Uther wields an altered version of Caliburn of similar quality to it’s true self. In battle, he can ignite the sword with dragonfire and enhance it’s power before releasing it in an inferno the swallows the opponent. The Noble Phantasm itself is not the sword but rather the technique and skill that Uther uses when swinging the ignited sword.

Relationships:

Merlin

Still views him as a trusted advisor and friend. Wishes he would not inform him of his daughters’ sex life. Holds the distinction of being one of the few people to catch Merlin off guard.

“Ah, Merlin. My old friend! You are truly a sight for these sore eyes… Would I like to hear about my child? … I know you better than to answer yes.”

Arturia Pendragon

A father in name only, he believes. He feels nothing but shame and remorse upon seeing her, believing he does not deserve to be considered among her family. This despite Arturia’s admiration of his own rule.

“… Of course, she is here. The noble King of Knights who did what I could not… No Master, I do not wish to speak with her. I had that chance long ago…”

Arthur Pendragon

Is VERY confused why he has a look alike calling him ‘Father.’ While accepting of the man, Uther can’t help but feel bitter about how things seemed to have worked out for his other self.

“Master? Why is that lad giving me such a strange look? … Arthur Pendragon? My son from another world? … *sigh* Of course I find an heir I could truly pass on to NOW of all times…”

Lancelot

Is quite confused (then amused) that his daughter’s greatest knight is a Frenchman. Uther shares a kinship with him as a fellow knight ashamed of his past. Helps that Lancelot is the first Servant he meets upon arriving at Chaldea.

“Ah sir Lancelot! I was wondering if you and I could partake in a friendly spar sometime soon! Yes yes, I shall try to keep from getting too excited like last time.”

The Orkney Siblings (Gawain, Agravain, Gareth, Garehis)

Uther feels deeply conflicted with the siblings, knowing that they are the children of his one surviving child and yet his own failings as father caused them harm indirectly. He is, however, forced to put these feelings aside as the knights all deeply admire and adore him, having been raised on stories of his heroics. Especially the eldest Gawain.

(Gawain) “Oh, you are…yes, Gawain. Morgan’s eldest son. I shall take my leave. … Wait, You want me to stay? You want to know about my battles? Haha, I-I don’t know what to say.”

(Gareth) “Oh, young Gareth. What a surprise, what brings you to me? … A jousting battle? Young lady, do I appear to be of the Lancer Class in any manner? … Now it’s a sparring match?!”

Vortigern

The mere sight of his elder brother deeply enrages Uther. The pain of his brother Ambrousis’ death dredged up at the sight of the sibling he believes he should have slain, there is no chance that Uther will ever cooperate with Vortigern.

“VORTIGERN! Damn you to hell, you inhuman tyrant!”

Morgan Le Fay Pendragon

To say the sight of his eldest daughter brings Uther pain would be nothing if not an understatement. Pressured by the constant wars and responsibilities as king, along with no partner to help him in raising a family, he could never truly invest himself into Morgan’s life as he wished to. Because of this, the death of her sister and even his own, Morgan walked a path of sacrifice and failure, transforming her into the brutal witch she is known as. All because, in Uther’s eyes, he could not comfort her.

“Morgan, oh Morgan. You have suffered so much, despite never wishing for the throne yourself. Seeking it out for Morgause and myself… Forgive your fool of a father, for he could not save you from this.”

Mordred

He did not recognize her as his kin at first but greatly enjoyed her company. Upon learning of her full heritage, Uther resolved himself to make up for his failures with her parents and help guide her to a better life.

“Ah, Mordred. Come, come. We have much to talk about. Yes yes, I know you feel as though my talks are long winded and boring. But I ask of you: will you allow this old man to indulge talking to his grandchild? Ha ha, no need to blush, I should be thanking you after all.”

*Sorry to any Arthurian myth fans but holy fuck, not only is Fate’s iteration of the Round Table Myth really hard to faithfully adapt the original myth- The myth ITSELF gets really patchy when not directly concerning Arthur. 

Like, the actual villain of early Uther’s life was VORTIGERN, who was NOT his brother. That doesn’t line up with Fate so I had to make the good guy Ambrousis a bad guy. And THEN it turns out that Uther fucked and married Igraine BEFORE Arthur which again doesn’t match up to Fate. So had to change the mother of Morgan and Morgause to someone else just for this to make sense.

If I were to nitpick at every weird thing Fate does with Arthurian legend, I’d be writing all night, but there is something the Fate series changes that really bugs me, and it has to do with Morgan le Fay.

Fate!Morgan is actually a composite character, derived from two characters from Arthurian legend; Legend!Morgan le Fay, from whom she gains her magical abilities, and Morgause, from whom she largely takes her role in story, as mother of the Orkney siblings (Gawain, Agravain, Gaheris, Gareth, and Mordred) and part of the reason for the fall of Camelot. Fate!Morgan being made up of those two characters doesn’t bug me. I think it’s actually not a bad idea to combine those two characters to make things a bit simpler than having them both around.

That’s not what bugs me.

What does bug me is the way they changed her relationship to Arthur/Artoria.

In Fate, Morgan is a legitimate daughter of Uther Pendragon. My search on the type-moon wiki doesn’t specify who her mother was, but it’s probably safe to assume her mother was Igraine, making her Artoria’s full sister. The reason for her antagonism towards Artoria is that she saw their father as loving her more, and placing his hopes in his younger daughter, even though both Morgan and Artoria were of equal status. This favoritism, whether true of perceived, led Morgan to resent Artoria and want to destroy her.

Now, in most versions of Arthurian legend, Morgan and Morgause are NOT the daughters of Uther. Instead, they are the daughters of Igraine and Gorlois, the Duke of Cornwall (the very south-western most part of Britain). Uther fell in love with Igraine, and went to war with Gorlois to steal her from him. On the very same night that Uther’s forces storm the castle Gorlois is staying in and kill him, Uther has Merlin use magic to disguise him as Gorlois, so he can sneak into the castle Igraine is in and rape her, conceiving Arthur. Igraine later learns the truth about what happened, and is coerced into marrying Uther. Her daughters, Elaine, Morgause, and Morgan, are then married to Uther’s allies.

From my point of view, Morgan and Morgause have a much more compelling reason to hate Arthur in the legend than Morgan does in Fate. The sisters see Arthur as the son of the person who murdered their father, raped their mother, and married them off to secure his own political alliances. Arthur presents himself as the rightful king of Britain and a just ruler, but this is predicated on being the legitimate heir of Uther Pendragon. For Morgan and Morgause, this means that Arthur, Camelot, and every ideal of honor and chivalry they stand for are built upon such an act of cruelty and barbarism that it renders everything a colossal monument to hypocrisy. How could they not want to see it all collapse in on itself?

All in all, I just think trading all of that in for “Dad loved you more than me so I hate you” is just wasted potential.

BEHOLD. Someone said, probably more than a year ago, that I should try my hand at making a relationship chart for our favorite Arthuriana characters in Fate. I didn't feel like doing it then, but I felt like doing it now, and then while doing it remembered why I didn't feel like doing it then.

This is literally just the 'Saber' part.

This is a (somewhat) simplified version of the Saber part. I tried formatting this so many ways and this was the one that made me want to scream the least.

NOTES:

Explaining why 'Pendragon' is in quotes: 'Pendragon' was more of a title than an actual surname, literally meaning 'Head Dragon' in Welsh, and was mostly an authoritative title used in regards to Uther. Over time, people added the title to Arthur's name as a pseudo-surname as well, before it became treated as an actual surname for the figure. However, this does mean that Mordred most likely wouldn't be 'Mordred Pendragon' unless he acquired the same societal status as Uther and Arthur via becoming king. Still, Fate is one of the many works that treats 'Pendragon' as a true surname rather than a title.

Similarly to 'Pendragon', 'Vortigern' may also be a title that became a name later on, with historians arguing that it may have meant something like 'Supreme Lord'. It wasn't until later interpretations that 'Vortigern' went from a nebulous, violent ruler of the Britons to Arthur's uncle and Uther's brother.

In terms of legends, Morgan is often the step-daughter of Uther after his marriage of Igraine. In Fate, Morgan is Uther's biological daughter and was simply falsely presented as Uther's step-daughter. This is probably a result of fusing Morgan with Uther's daughter Morgause.

Arthur and Morgan have two obscure siblings that will probably never be relevant: Queen Elaine of Garlot, and Madoc.

Gawain, Gareth, Gaheris, and Agravain all had wives. Gareth was married to Lady Lyonesse, Gaheris was married to Lady Lynette (the sister to Lady Lyonesse), Agravain was married to Lady Laurel (Lyonesse and Lynette's niece), and Gawain was… complicated.

See, Gawain had a lot of romances going on. A decent amount of stories had him start single, fall in love, ride off into the sunset… and then come the next tale he'd be single again, rinse and repeat. I'm guessing Ragnell is his canonical spouse since that's the most well-known story and the one with a solid romantic moral in it, but a name has not been dropped and Fate Gawain seems to have no qualms about being 'single again' so honestly we may never know. Which is honestly fitting characterization if you take his 'episodic romances' literally.

I almost forgot Ywain was canonized via Summer Ruler Artoria. He's also here.

Gray and Add are representing Sir Kay because he doesn't have any clear artwork yet.

My favorite part about the Nasuverse is how it needlessly crams down the Arthurian mythos. Technically, there should be about 50 years of stuff, and Arthur should have reigned for between 20-30 years. Which gives time for several iterations of the Round Table, ending with the generation of Galahad.

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Both thoughts on Morgan please ! :D

Morgan in folklore is a fascinating character. Mostly because no matter what, her first presence as "Morgan the Healer" never seems to go away. She always is, in the end, the one who takes Arthur to Avalon, the reason that maybe he'll be able to come back, while also being one of the key factors that leads to the end of Camelot. no matter how much people try, she's outside of being defined completely. What's more, she's got an incredibly personal and touching motive when you look at it. This isn't just some story about power and how far someone is willing to go to take it, it's about love, and how a horrific act in the past can have echoes that affect the innocent. This isn't to say I like her as a 'hero' but I like her as character.

So, to me Fate!Morgan feels a little like wasted potential. Her motives are a little clearer with new stuff, but honestly pretty much everything I said earlier still stands about why I hate her as Uther's 'true and recognized daughter' even if apparently she's now some fae that spawned into existence too. Her motive of 'you took away my destiny', sort of erases her nuance as a character, and it more just seems like she's a bad person from the start who doesn't accept that she's a bad person. What's more, Nasu tends to use her to project things like the Lady of the Lake's bad behavior on. And, more importantly, it erases Uther's being a creep. Like, I like that we've got a face and more to her, but I guess I feel that if we're going to overcomplicate the reason Artoria became king as having to do with Vortigern and the White Dragon and a plot between Uther and Merlin to save the country, we can have Morgan have a little more complicated motives. In the LB, I'm...pretty sure we're going to get some Midsummer Night's Dream payoff with her though.

My favorite part about the Nasuverse is how it needlessly crams down the Arthurian mythos. Technically, there should be about 50 years of stuff, and Arthur should have reigned for between 20-30 years. Which gives time for several iterations of the Round Table, ending with the generation of Galahad.

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thanks for the tl;dr. While I don't agree with all your opinions, I get where you're coming from. Highkey, if you don't mind, what do think of Urobuchi as a writer? I frankly can't stand the man's writings, not only in regards to his "DeCoNsTrUcTiOn" of the magical girl genre with Madoka, but also Fate/Zero and his work on Kamen Rider Gaim.

It's......really hard for me to not blame Urobutcher himself for how Madoka basically killed the entire magical girl genre by causing it to be flooded with edgy tryhard tortureporn.

Like from an objective and analytical standpoint, Madoka is an incredible and meticulously crafted story. ...but subjectively, i fucking hate it, and then on top of that also hate it for what it (again, indirectly) did the genre and really just mainstreem anime in general to a certain, albeit obviously much lesser, degree. I feel like that's an entirely different discussion though, and really it just boils down to a case of "it's good" and "I don't like it" are not mutually exclusive. That's my read anyways.

Fate/Zero i love when watched bit by bit but dont like as a coherent story for much the same subjective reasons I'm personally not a fan of Madoka. For all my negativity I don't actually like nihilistic or cruel stories. Fate/Zero is actually what made me realize that, being the first time I had to as aforementioned go "it's good....but I don't like it." I love pretty much everything that doesn't involve Kerry, which is an issue when the whole story revolves around Kerry.

It's by no means without some serious issues though. Urobutcher wrote Artoria as a completely different character and it causes some serious inconsistencies that had harmful long-term repercussions, the banquet scene is a great setup that as I've discussed before falls completely flat in retrospect because nothing talked about was delivered on, and characters like Abs Hassan and Kariya got beyond wasted, just to name some of my issues with Zero.

But unlike with a LOT of Nasu's writing, actually just FGO writing in general frankly, those flaws don't contradict the ethos of the story. They come across less as contradictions that the writer couldnt be asked to rectify, as much as they do human error and an inability to make everything perfectly coherent and loop back around to the an overarching point. None of the things i've mentioned really detract from the message Fate Zero wants to give. They detract from the quality and consistency of the storytelling, absolutely, but not from the intended purpose of that storytelling. That sort of thing is HUGELY different than something like FGO just making up alternate history to suit it's narrative despite said narrative supposedly being about unity through our shared real world history.

I suppose what it really comes down to is that I don't feel malice or narrow mindedness from Urobutcher's works the way I do from Nasu. Kirei is the best example of this - i'd go so far as to argue Kirei's character didn't have ANY of the depth people now attribute to it before Urobutcher got involved. That's not even a dig at Nasu, that's just how much Urobutcher clearly GETS the kind of character Kirei is [now] meant to be. Same goes for Gilles and Kerry, those are characters that were perfect for someone like Urobutcher to execute (in multiple senses).

Again, Urobutcher is not a flawless writer by any stretch, no one is, and his style is by no means for everyone, because no style SHOULD be universally appealing...but I feel like he very much gives a shit. I feel like whether its all the way back with Fate Zero or his relatively more recent return for Lostbelt 3, Urobutcher gave a shit and did everything with as much purpose as he could. On that ground alone, I'm willing to be a lot more sympathetic to the parts of his writing i don't like, since I can at least convince myself those things (be it intentional choices or simple mistakes) were done in good faith.

So reddit got more PHH Morgan lore. First of all, she's actually Artoria's full blooded sister. When she was born, Gaia made her "the Child of Britain" who would inherit the island's mystery. The result was that she got three different split personalities like Kay mentioned: Morgan the human(Warrior), the fairy(Fairy), and the personification of Britain(Witch). Note: her Fairy self is named VIVIAN yes, LADY OF THE LAKE Vivian. According to Lancelot, Nimue, his mom, was an alias for Vivian so...

-Me: "So Nasu, which is it? Is Morgan Igraine's kid or Uther's kid?' Nasu: "... Yes."

-So basically Morgan's three bitches in PHH. I would have thought it was a gradual process from one to another but of course Nasu takes the fucking craziest and most metaphysical route possible just to clock me in the face.

-Well that explains the whole 'Evil Vivian' thing.

... Also-

Arturia: *at Gawain* You're Morgan's kid.

Arturia: *at Agravain* You're Morgan's kid. (Wish I wasn't)

Arturia: *at Gareth* You're Morgan's kid!

Arturia: *at Gaheris* You're Morgan's kid! (How'd I get here?!)

Arturia: *at Mordred* You're Morgan's AND my kid. (...Can you say that again?)

Arturia: IS THERE ANY MORE CHILDREN OF MORGAN IN MY COURT?!

Lancelot: ... Well...not biologically...but...

Arturia: ....

The Orkney Siblings: ...

Mordred: ... I'm not extending my family tree any further.

Also also-

Lancelot: My own mother tried to rape me...

Mordred: At least she gave a shit about you.

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