What's The Difference Between Proto Morgan Le Fay And Her Fate Counterpart? It Sounds Like Proto Morgan

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Both thoughts on Morgan please ! :D

Morgan in folklore is a fascinating character. Mostly because no matter what, her first presence as "Morgan the Healer" never seems to go away. She always is, in the end, the one who takes Arthur to Avalon, the reason that maybe he'll be able to come back, while also being one of the key factors that leads to the end of Camelot. no matter how much people try, she's outside of being defined completely. What's more, she's got an incredibly personal and touching motive when you look at it. This isn't just some story about power and how far someone is willing to go to take it, it's about love, and how a horrific act in the past can have echoes that affect the innocent. This isn't to say I like her as a 'hero' but I like her as character.

So, to me Fate!Morgan feels a little like wasted potential. Her motives are a little clearer with new stuff, but honestly pretty much everything I said earlier still stands about why I hate her as Uther's 'true and recognized daughter' even if apparently she's now some fae that spawned into existence too. Her motive of 'you took away my destiny', sort of erases her nuance as a character, and it more just seems like she's a bad person from the start who doesn't accept that she's a bad person. What's more, Nasu tends to use her to project things like the Lady of the Lake's bad behavior on. And, more importantly, it erases Uther's being a creep. Like, I like that we've got a face and more to her, but I guess I feel that if we're going to overcomplicate the reason Artoria became king as having to do with Vortigern and the White Dragon and a plot between Uther and Merlin to save the country, we can have Morgan have a little more complicated motives. In the LB, I'm...pretty sure we're going to get some Midsummer Night's Dream payoff with her though.

Why Morgan being Uther's Daughter Annoys Me

So, I mentioned a few times a little about the fact that Morgan being Uther's daughter and how I hate it. Since I got a few people mentioning that they wanted to see my thoughts on it, I'll give a few at least.

So, before we begin, I'm going to give a quick refresher on Morgan's backstory, just so people don't have to read back over things I've written or other stuff.

Morgan is almost always (other than in Welsh sources were she doesn't get mentioned until Arthur is mentioned going to Morgan the Healer) the daughter of Igraine and Gorlois, who Malory calls Duke of Cornwall. She and her sister Morgause (and their sister Elaine who doesn't much show up in the stories) apparently had a good relationship with their father, since he's called a 'good man' pretty consistently. However, Gorlois appears to be a political rival of Uther Pendragon, for the more or less shaky throne.

The problem occurs when Uther invites Gorlois to a feast to work out an alliance, but on seeing his wife, Igraine, he immediately wants her. Igraine seems to notice his interest, and immediately runs to her husband, who immediately takes her at her word and leaves.

Uther declares war. And while he talks about betrayals and such, the real reason is he wants Igraine THAT bad.

However, since Gorlois is himself powerful, and Igraine is actually faithful to her husband, Uther employs Merlin to make him look like Gorlois. Some stories say that he kills Gorlois on the battlefield others say that it was in his own house. Regardless, he is taken for Gorlois and Igraine sleeps with him.

Uther later reveals himself as Uther, breaks the news that he killed Gorlois and that Igrain slept with HIM that night.

He pretty much forcibly marries Igraine, and sends Morgause to be married to his ally Lot and Morgan into a nunnery where she is later married herself (girls used to be educated in nunneries).

This is a motivation. Morgan has absolutely EVERY reason to hate Uther Pendragon, the man who killed her father, raped her mother and tore her happy family apart. She has every reason to struggle with her feelings for Arthur, moving between hating and aiding him, sewing the seeds of his destruction and then coming to save him. She has every reason to despise Guinevere who not only accused one of Morgan's lady's of adultery, but also throws the chance of the happy family Morgan can never reclaim in the dirt. She has every reason to hate Lancelot, who comes in to the same thing she saw Uther do.

What making Morgan as the daughter of Uther does is completely nullify her reasons and motives. It makes her a villain with a nearly incomprehensible motive. She wants to take over Britain but she couldn't do it anyways because she'd have to be a man and she wasn't going to hide that. She hates Artoria for particular reason other than 'she's in my way'. She just seems to be there because the story needed a villain. This utterly erases Morgan's pain and rage, and it seems like all it's there to do is exonerate Uther.

Uther's defining act, and the thing that Arthur is born from, is a horrific deed that should solidify him as a monster. He knew perfectly well Igraine wasn't interested, but he forced her to marry him anyways. By making it having never happened like that, it makes Uther a more heroic figure than anyone whose name is "the Terrible One" should ever be.

While, yes, artistic license is a thing and all that, this particular change is both pointless and leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

You know whole Morgan having three different personalities probably worked a bit bitter if it was more like Morgan the witch, Vivian, and Morgan the sister to Artoria were originally one person but something happened to her to split into three people that now lead different lives that played a hand in fate’s arthurian mythos

Sorry, but I seriously don’t agree. If you're just going to split them into three different people, keep them as three separate people in the first place. The issue of 'Morgan being Vivian' wasn't 'Morgan and Vivian can't exist in separate places and live different lives', it's that:

'Morgan being Vivian, combined with the condensed timespan of Fate's Arthurian mythos, opens up more questions than answers due to the established ages of the characters'

I was fine with Morgan having Vivian's authority, because characters borrow the 'authority' of some other character every other moment. But having Morgan actually be Vivian, therefore being Lancelot's adoptive mother, and ALSO being arbitrarily written to be Artoria's FULL sister rather than a partial sibling from an earlier relationship- it just makes things messy for no good reason.

And Morgan COULD have been 'The Lady of the Lake'. That's not a new concept- but it was a concept that worked when Morgan was... you know, allowed to be considerably older than Arthur in order for that to feasibly work. Especially considering all the pre-Arthur stuff that generally happened regarding Merlin, Vortigern, Uther, etc.

The Arthurian mythos, despite the name, didn't just... start with King Arthur. It's a story that requires setup, and Nasu wrote it so that the 'setup' is just a murky pit that requires logical jumps and purely ignoring other things in order to make it work. 

Nasu wants to have his cake and eat it to with every Arthurian character being both 'cool and young' and also having lived the full lives that encapsulated their stories, and it just makes things into a muddy mess once you look past the glamour of 'this sounds cool'. He wants to have the moral ambiguity of Morgan le Fay, but he didn’t give himself a proper setting to do so.

What do you think about PHH Morgan?

Now, remember, I don't even like or really even pity LostBelt Morgan.

PHH just annoys me. Her motive has been completely cheapened from being a direct result of Uther's actions to 'it was her purpose as a fae to be king'. Because I guess we can't have Uther doing anything bad that might reflect poorly on Artoria.

We also now have her having split personalities because Nasu either was feeling lazy or REALLY wanted to hint at that triad goddess that everyone keeps pretending existed and never did outside the Fates.

And also making everything with Lancelot really REALLY weird. Since he was raised by the Lady of the Lake. Who is now Morgan. Who stole him as a child from his parents while they were fleeing their kingdom. Who also apparently raised him to fight for Artoria. Who he is implied to have feelings for and showed up earlier than usual.

Nasu's Camelot lore is a mess.

Then we have Mordred, and how Mordred was conceived and created. And the fact that we know that she was abusive to Mordred. To the point that Mordred goes nuts on Semiramis just because she reminds Mordred of Morgan. And yeah, I'm putting the blame of Artoria's rejection completely on Morgan. While Artoria gets a hard time for how she responded to Mordred, at some level, I'm not particularly shocked that she sort of shut down. That's about the only way she knows how to deal with trauma, and Nasu decided to have Morgan do what Uther originally did (taking the form of a loved one to sleep with you) and Artoria is understandably not responding well.

But yeah, my issues with Morgan are also a part of a wider issue with how Nasu is doing Camelot. I'm fully aware of WHY I think he's doing it this way, but it still annoys me.

Morgan le Fey’s Condensed Timeline

I drove myself up the wall working this out this morning, but this is how I assume Morgan could have possibly raised 6 children while Altria only lived to age 35. Please let me know if you see anything wrong, I’m doing my best!

@drunk-on-starlight​

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Love this game

Gonna ramble for a bit.

Galahad’s portrayal in FGO kinda sucks for like, several reasons, but the main thing is how they underuse his connection with Mash. Like, it was one thing when the theory was ‘Galahad refuses to actively participate in anything relating to Chaldea’, but that got muddled in event after event where he imposes his will onto Mash exclusively to dunk on his father, and that’s it.

Like… Galahad’s whole thing was that he was this incredibly pure, uber-devout knight that constantly spent his time healing people and banishing evil spirits, and they do… ABSOLUTELY NOTHING with that. Mash is defensive sure, and her skills may express that, but like… we fight so many ghosts and evil spirits, and yet there’s no mention of that aspect of Galahad at all.

Galahad’s personality only manifests around Lancelot? And purely to make Mash say rude things to him? For no reason? Which seems notably out of character for both of them, especially since a pretty large teaching in Christianity is ‘turning the other cheek’, which Mash!Galahad doesn’t do in the slightest- which is even weirder because Lancelot isn’t even at FAULT in the relationship, Galahad’s mother is.

Galahad’s relationship with Lancelot wasn’t even that canonically bad. Most of the ‘conflict’ between Lancelot and Galahad came from Galahad TANGENTALLY proving he was better than Lancelot by doing more good deeds and acting more knightly. When Galahad actually fought and beat Lancelot, Lancelot was so impressed that he was the one who ended up knighting him in the first place.

But like… why not have parts of Galahad’s personality manifest in other ways? Why not have Mash find herself drawn towards incredibly religious Christian Servants like Martha and Jeanne? Or have interesting conversations with David or Amakusa? Why not have her feel pity towards Caster Gilles, and maybe a obligation to bring him back to the ‘right path’?

Why not have Mash feel uncomfortable around the Roman Servants (especially Nero), considering Rome was

One of Camelot/Britain’s biggest enemies

Persecuted a ton of Christians, and…

Like, FAMOUSLY KILLED JESUS.

Actually, why don’t any of the Christian Servants express even the slightest bit of ‘eeeehhh…’ around Nero and the other Romans? Outside of the fact that it’s impossible for them to paint Nero and Rome in a slightly negative light. Wait, no. That’s it. That’s the reason.

And these are just a few possibilities, but there are SO many Servants in Chaldea that Mash could interact in a more meaningful way with due to sharing a body with Galahad.

Galahad just feels so stupidly underused during Part 1 and events, and maybe they’re saving some of the more intricate stuff for if he actually shows up as a Servant, but at the same time it feels like they’ll be doing the bare minimum with him.

The world deciding who’s gonna fuck up Camelot this time

Do ya ever think that if Uther shows up, and he, the Artorias, and Morgan interact, Chaldea is just gonna have a collective epiphany of "So parental issues have always been a thing in this family, hasn't it?"

I’ll be honest I try very hard not to think about Uther because idk if it’s explained in fsn or whatever but my knowledge of Artoria’s backstory prior to being king is cruelly lacking

Like, is she Uther’s daughter? Is she a farmer’s daughter? Why does she sound like she was raised among commoners, why was Merlin the one to raise her? Why did Merlin present her to the Sword of Selection considering he doesn’t actually see the future? Or is it that he’s not able to anymore? Why is the Caliburn used to designate the next king, didn’t Uther have any other recognized heirs? What’s the fucking deal with Morgan? Did she grow up with Artoria? Do these two even like. Interacted? Why would Morgan want the fall of King Arthur? Is it a personal grudge? Is it a general “fuck you Britain”? Why did Merlin give Artoria a dragon heart?

Like none of them really matter when it comes to Artoria as a character, since from my understanding she’s supposed to represent “shoving who you are as a person under a rug in favor of a vague ideal you don’t really understand” (like Shirou and Rin) so the exact reason why “Artoria the farmer girl” exists and became “Artoria the King” doesn’t really matter, so I’m fine with that usually, but that means thinking about Artoria’s extended family feels a bit like that one time I tried to write a fic about a show but the canon was so inconsistent I had to rewrite the entire worldbuilding when the point was originally just to make a cute soulmate au for my otp.