So Reddit Got More PHH Morgan Lore. First Of All, She's Actually Artoria's Full Blooded Sister. When

If Lancelot ran away after killing Agravain then coming back to kill Gareth to rescue Gwen, there was not enough time for a manhunt between the escape and the rescue. She did go to war with Lancelot at Gawain's behest. She turned back to Britain because a rebel broke out, not that she publicly made peace with Lancelot. When exactly did they have time to talk and for Artoria to say he wasn't at fault? Either Lancelot was referring to another incidence, he confused it with another time when the murder of the Orkney siblings hadn't happened or Fate being ambiguously confusing on purpose.

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If I were to nitpick at every weird thing Fate does with Arthurian legend, I’d be writing all night, but there is something the Fate series changes that really bugs me, and it has to do with Morgan le Fay.

Fate!Morgan is actually a composite character, derived from two characters from Arthurian legend; Legend!Morgan le Fay, from whom she gains her magical abilities, and Morgause, from whom she largely takes her role in story, as mother of the Orkney siblings (Gawain, Agravain, Gaheris, Gareth, and Mordred) and part of the reason for the fall of Camelot. Fate!Morgan being made up of those two characters doesn’t bug me. I think it’s actually not a bad idea to combine those two characters to make things a bit simpler than having them both around.

That’s not what bugs me.

What does bug me is the way they changed her relationship to Arthur/Artoria.

In Fate, Morgan is a legitimate daughter of Uther Pendragon. My search on the type-moon wiki doesn’t specify who her mother was, but it’s probably safe to assume her mother was Igraine, making her Artoria’s full sister. The reason for her antagonism towards Artoria is that she saw their father as loving her more, and placing his hopes in his younger daughter, even though both Morgan and Artoria were of equal status. This favoritism, whether true of perceived, led Morgan to resent Artoria and want to destroy her.

Now, in most versions of Arthurian legend, Morgan and Morgause are NOT the daughters of Uther. Instead, they are the daughters of Igraine and Gorlois, the Duke of Cornwall (the very south-western most part of Britain). Uther fell in love with Igraine, and went to war with Gorlois to steal her from him. On the very same night that Uther’s forces storm the castle Gorlois is staying in and kill him, Uther has Merlin use magic to disguise him as Gorlois, so he can sneak into the castle Igraine is in and rape her, conceiving Arthur. Igraine later learns the truth about what happened, and is coerced into marrying Uther. Her daughters, Elaine, Morgause, and Morgan, are then married to Uther’s allies.

From my point of view, Morgan and Morgause have a much more compelling reason to hate Arthur in the legend than Morgan does in Fate. The sisters see Arthur as the son of the person who murdered their father, raped their mother, and married them off to secure his own political alliances. Arthur presents himself as the rightful king of Britain and a just ruler, but this is predicated on being the legitimate heir of Uther Pendragon. For Morgan and Morgause, this means that Arthur, Camelot, and every ideal of honor and chivalry they stand for are built upon such an act of cruelty and barbarism that it renders everything a colossal monument to hypocrisy. How could they not want to see it all collapse in on itself?

All in all, I just think trading all of that in for “Dad loved you more than me so I hate you” is just wasted potential.

Both thoughts on Morgan please ! :D

Morgan in folklore is a fascinating character. Mostly because no matter what, her first presence as "Morgan the Healer" never seems to go away. She always is, in the end, the one who takes Arthur to Avalon, the reason that maybe he'll be able to come back, while also being one of the key factors that leads to the end of Camelot. no matter how much people try, she's outside of being defined completely. What's more, she's got an incredibly personal and touching motive when you look at it. This isn't just some story about power and how far someone is willing to go to take it, it's about love, and how a horrific act in the past can have echoes that affect the innocent. This isn't to say I like her as a 'hero' but I like her as character.

So, to me Fate!Morgan feels a little like wasted potential. Her motives are a little clearer with new stuff, but honestly pretty much everything I said earlier still stands about why I hate her as Uther's 'true and recognized daughter' even if apparently she's now some fae that spawned into existence too. Her motive of 'you took away my destiny', sort of erases her nuance as a character, and it more just seems like she's a bad person from the start who doesn't accept that she's a bad person. What's more, Nasu tends to use her to project things like the Lady of the Lake's bad behavior on. And, more importantly, it erases Uther's being a creep. Like, I like that we've got a face and more to her, but I guess I feel that if we're going to overcomplicate the reason Artoria became king as having to do with Vortigern and the White Dragon and a plot between Uther and Merlin to save the country, we can have Morgan have a little more complicated motives. In the LB, I'm...pretty sure we're going to get some Midsummer Night's Dream payoff with her though.

The world deciding who’s gonna fuck up Camelot this time

Love this game

Do ya ever think that if Uther shows up, and he, the Artorias, and Morgan interact, Chaldea is just gonna have a collective epiphany of "So parental issues have always been a thing in this family, hasn't it?"

I’ll be honest I try very hard not to think about Uther because idk if it’s explained in fsn or whatever but my knowledge of Artoria’s backstory prior to being king is cruelly lacking

Like, is she Uther’s daughter? Is she a farmer’s daughter? Why does she sound like she was raised among commoners, why was Merlin the one to raise her? Why did Merlin present her to the Sword of Selection considering he doesn’t actually see the future? Or is it that he’s not able to anymore? Why is the Caliburn used to designate the next king, didn’t Uther have any other recognized heirs? What’s the fucking deal with Morgan? Did she grow up with Artoria? Do these two even like. Interacted? Why would Morgan want the fall of King Arthur? Is it a personal grudge? Is it a general “fuck you Britain”? Why did Merlin give Artoria a dragon heart?

Like none of them really matter when it comes to Artoria as a character, since from my understanding she’s supposed to represent “shoving who you are as a person under a rug in favor of a vague ideal you don’t really understand” (like Shirou and Rin) so the exact reason why “Artoria the farmer girl” exists and became “Artoria the King” doesn’t really matter, so I’m fine with that usually, but that means thinking about Artoria’s extended family feels a bit like that one time I tried to write a fic about a show but the canon was so inconsistent I had to rewrite the entire worldbuilding when the point was originally just to make a cute soulmate au for my otp.

Listen to me LISTEN to me. Camelot was doomed from the start. It was doomed from the moment Artoria picked up the sword. It was doomed from the moment Uther decided to create the "perfect king." Because if there is such a thing as a perfect ruler it cannot be a human being, and forcing a person into that mold can only have disastrous consequences.

It's not a matter of "one single event kickstarted the fall of Camelot," it's a matter of "Artoria's entire life lead to her acting like this. There is no way she could have made any other choice based on what she has experienced until now. And I say Artoria but this also applies to Mordred, to Lancelot, even to Morgan."

Of course Tristan would part with angry words. He was hurt, and the King was here for him to lash out. Of course Lancelot would reach out to Guinevere; he loved the king, wanted to help the king, grew up valuing the individual over the country, he could not foresee his affections growing. Of course Aggravain would out the affair; his loyalty to the king is absolute, and he found that to be betrayal. Of course Artoria would forgive him, of course Artoria would reject Mordred, she knows no other way to be, knows not how to hold personal grudges or hold people close to her. Of course Mordred would respond to this with violence, they know no other way to be. And before all of that, of course Morgan would plot Camelot's downfall, she's a witch in a world being drained of its mystery she's pissed that she's getting evicted because the world decided it belonged to humans from now on.

They all had other options, yes. But with their life, the one they would pick was a given. Of course, hindsight is 10/10, but can you truly say you would have known better in their place?

What's the difference between Proto Morgan Le Fay and her Fate counterpart? It sounds like Proto Morgan is Chaotic Neutral while Fate's version is straight up evil. Is it because Artoria being a woman who gets to be the King made Fate Morgan even more morally depraved while Arthur being a man means Proto Morgan can't really argue against that fact and it isn't as bad to the point that it could drastically alter her morals? (That being said, they're both still a little loopy in the head.)

So, you’re right. Proto Morgan Le Fey was basically Chaotic Neutral. She’s...not mentally sound in the slightest, but I think that Artoria’s appearance DID push her over the edge. While Arthur looks nothing like Uther, That more helped her hatred not pass to him so much, and she did sometimes help, though she resented that Arthur seemed to just get everything and was the cause of their mother’s death. Still, it’s the law of succession, and she was, while originally hostile, at least willing to eventually judge Arthur for himself. Though...some news about him is why she softens and starts being a little more helpful.

For Fate Morgan, the fact that Artoria was a woman...made it just not fair. Why was SHE the one who was given everything, power, love, success, and even the crown, while Morgan had been forced to watch her happy, loving family get ripped to shreds because of the lust of one man, lost her father, lost her mother, was married off because she was inconvenient, and now she has to watch as some woman who looks so much like her is given a life she longed for at the hands of Merlin, who helped Uther. 

Honestly, I think half the reason Artoria never really went after Fate Morgan is that she couldn’t bring herself to hate the woman, regardless of the trouble she caused.

Yeah but like, don't you have to be chosen by the planet and be 'worthy' to use Excalibur or something like that??

I do not for the life of me remember how the fuck Excalibur works in fate beyond that Bedi not returning it was what resulted in The Lion King. It's also so subsumed with Caliburn in popular culture that I do not remember where one stops and the other starts most of the time.

The fact that they can shoot beams with it, doesn't that make all of Chaldea sabers?

The 'worthiness' thing is Caliburn, which Fate establishes as a different sword in its canon (which is a familiar take in some versions of Arthuriana, the Caliburn/Excalibur thing is historically kinda muddy).

Excalibur is just an incredibly juiced-up Divine Construct that needs a ton of mana and shoots super lasers that automatically scale in strength depending on how much of a 'threat to humanity' something is. And because of how powerful it is, and how much mana it consumes, will kill people who aren't properly built for using it- like Bedivere. Which is why handing Excalibur to Ritsuka and saying 'use it' would be the fastest way to get a Dead End, because they'd probably die instantly after firing it off.

Luckily, Artoria is built different (Dragon Core), and can use it without dying instantly. She'll just get really tired instead.

So, again, it's a fair weapon to stick on to your massive flying magical super ship, if not pretty energy consuming, so you need to make sure it works when you do fire it off.