My Favorite Part About The Nasuverse Is How It Needlessly Crams Down The Arthurian Mythos. Technically,

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Morgan le Fey’s Condensed Timeline

I drove myself up the wall working this out this morning, but this is how I assume Morgan could have possibly raised 6 children while Altria only lived to age 35. Please let me know if you see anything wrong, I’m doing my best!

@drunk-on-starlight​

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Is it just me or does Fate's Mordred never receive any hate for starting her rebellion, which brought an end to Camelot? I know Artoria doesn't like her, but she's the only one. Gawain, who was literally killed by Mordred, is shown to love Mordred like a beloved sibling. I feel like Fate really ignores how guilty Mordred is for the loss of Camelot, and seems to blame Lancelot more due to his affair with Guinevere. What do you think?

I mean, yes. Fate never really makes an attempt to punish Mordred.

From a fan-perspective, there's not much room for hate because he's a solid character in regards to his villainy. He was one of the stronger parts of Apocrypha, and just like Nero served as a strong parallel to Artoria.

But from an in-fiction perspective, it's also that Mordred doesn't really... care. He doesn't care at all, really.

I think a common thing is that people assume that Mordred is a good person. He isn't. He isn't EVIL, but he isn't good either. He does what he wants, and follows just enough of a chivalric code that means that in most cases, he generally ends up doing the 'right' thing. He's a person driven by impulse, unlike the other KoTR that have a stricter moral code. He's one of the few characters that genuinely fits 'Chaotic Neutral'.

Mordred cares about one thing. Artoria. That's it. Not Camelot, not the citizens, not the other knights, just Artoria.

Camelot was a means to an end to take down Artoria- he talks big game about wanting to be king, but also doesn't have much remorse. 'Being king' as a wish was even just a way to lessen Artoria's burden, not to better the kingdom in any discernible way.

So, it's hard to put guilt on a character that is, by design... not that guilty about what they did. Mordred knows he's a traitor. He doesn't care.

Lancelot and Gawain, however, are drowning in guilt. Gawain's just keeping his head above water to stay a Saber, while Lancelot would rather just drown in madness because even lucidity is painful for him. That's because, unlike Mordred, Lancelot and Gawain are fundamentally good people who made horrible mistakes.

The narrative can't draw pain from the fall of Camelot for Mordred, because he doesn't give a shit.

However, a big part about how the knights current treat each other is the narrative of forgiveness. Artoria had the entirety of Stay Night and Zero. Gawain had EXTRA and the Camelot Singularity to genuinely forgive himself and Lancelot. Lancelot had Zero and Camelot Singularity. Tristan, Bedivere, and Agravain had the Camelot Singularity. Gareth will have a new interlude where she addresses her pain with Lancelot. The narrative of taking the second life that they're given as Servants, and appreciating it and their fellow knights.

And while Mordred is brought into the narrative due to being a knight, he isn't as central to it. Which puts him in his own bit of punished limbo- because while the other knights have openly forgiven each other, and him- Artoria hasn't.

And Artoria's the only one who really matters to Mordred.

What's the difference between Proto Morgan Le Fay and her Fate counterpart? It sounds like Proto Morgan is Chaotic Neutral while Fate's version is straight up evil. Is it because Artoria being a woman who gets to be the King made Fate Morgan even more morally depraved while Arthur being a man means Proto Morgan can't really argue against that fact and it isn't as bad to the point that it could drastically alter her morals? (That being said, they're both still a little loopy in the head.)

So, you’re right. Proto Morgan Le Fey was basically Chaotic Neutral. She’s...not mentally sound in the slightest, but I think that Artoria’s appearance DID push her over the edge. While Arthur looks nothing like Uther, That more helped her hatred not pass to him so much, and she did sometimes help, though she resented that Arthur seemed to just get everything and was the cause of their mother’s death. Still, it’s the law of succession, and she was, while originally hostile, at least willing to eventually judge Arthur for himself. Though...some news about him is why she softens and starts being a little more helpful.

For Fate Morgan, the fact that Artoria was a woman...made it just not fair. Why was SHE the one who was given everything, power, love, success, and even the crown, while Morgan had been forced to watch her happy, loving family get ripped to shreds because of the lust of one man, lost her father, lost her mother, was married off because she was inconvenient, and now she has to watch as some woman who looks so much like her is given a life she longed for at the hands of Merlin, who helped Uther. 

Honestly, I think half the reason Artoria never really went after Fate Morgan is that she couldn’t bring herself to hate the woman, regardless of the trouble she caused.

Both thoughts on Morgan please ! :D

Morgan in folklore is a fascinating character. Mostly because no matter what, her first presence as "Morgan the Healer" never seems to go away. She always is, in the end, the one who takes Arthur to Avalon, the reason that maybe he'll be able to come back, while also being one of the key factors that leads to the end of Camelot. no matter how much people try, she's outside of being defined completely. What's more, she's got an incredibly personal and touching motive when you look at it. This isn't just some story about power and how far someone is willing to go to take it, it's about love, and how a horrific act in the past can have echoes that affect the innocent. This isn't to say I like her as a 'hero' but I like her as character.

So, to me Fate!Morgan feels a little like wasted potential. Her motives are a little clearer with new stuff, but honestly pretty much everything I said earlier still stands about why I hate her as Uther's 'true and recognized daughter' even if apparently she's now some fae that spawned into existence too. Her motive of 'you took away my destiny', sort of erases her nuance as a character, and it more just seems like she's a bad person from the start who doesn't accept that she's a bad person. What's more, Nasu tends to use her to project things like the Lady of the Lake's bad behavior on. And, more importantly, it erases Uther's being a creep. Like, I like that we've got a face and more to her, but I guess I feel that if we're going to overcomplicate the reason Artoria became king as having to do with Vortigern and the White Dragon and a plot between Uther and Merlin to save the country, we can have Morgan have a little more complicated motives. In the LB, I'm...pretty sure we're going to get some Midsummer Night's Dream payoff with her though.

Gonna ramble for a bit.

Galahad’s portrayal in FGO kinda sucks for like, several reasons, but the main thing is how they underuse his connection with Mash. Like, it was one thing when the theory was ‘Galahad refuses to actively participate in anything relating to Chaldea’, but that got muddled in event after event where he imposes his will onto Mash exclusively to dunk on his father, and that’s it.

Like… Galahad’s whole thing was that he was this incredibly pure, uber-devout knight that constantly spent his time healing people and banishing evil spirits, and they do… ABSOLUTELY NOTHING with that. Mash is defensive sure, and her skills may express that, but like… we fight so many ghosts and evil spirits, and yet there’s no mention of that aspect of Galahad at all.

Galahad’s personality only manifests around Lancelot? And purely to make Mash say rude things to him? For no reason? Which seems notably out of character for both of them, especially since a pretty large teaching in Christianity is ‘turning the other cheek’, which Mash!Galahad doesn’t do in the slightest- which is even weirder because Lancelot isn’t even at FAULT in the relationship, Galahad’s mother is.

Galahad’s relationship with Lancelot wasn’t even that canonically bad. Most of the ‘conflict’ between Lancelot and Galahad came from Galahad TANGENTALLY proving he was better than Lancelot by doing more good deeds and acting more knightly. When Galahad actually fought and beat Lancelot, Lancelot was so impressed that he was the one who ended up knighting him in the first place.

But like… why not have parts of Galahad’s personality manifest in other ways? Why not have Mash find herself drawn towards incredibly religious Christian Servants like Martha and Jeanne? Or have interesting conversations with David or Amakusa? Why not have her feel pity towards Caster Gilles, and maybe a obligation to bring him back to the ‘right path’?

Why not have Mash feel uncomfortable around the Roman Servants (especially Nero), considering Rome was

One of Camelot/Britain’s biggest enemies

Persecuted a ton of Christians, and…

Like, FAMOUSLY KILLED JESUS.

Actually, why don’t any of the Christian Servants express even the slightest bit of ‘eeeehhh…’ around Nero and the other Romans? Outside of the fact that it’s impossible for them to paint Nero and Rome in a slightly negative light. Wait, no. That’s it. That’s the reason.

And these are just a few possibilities, but there are SO many Servants in Chaldea that Mash could interact in a more meaningful way with due to sharing a body with Galahad.

Galahad just feels so stupidly underused during Part 1 and events, and maybe they’re saving some of the more intricate stuff for if he actually shows up as a Servant, but at the same time it feels like they’ll be doing the bare minimum with him.

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You know whole Morgan having three different personalities probably worked a bit bitter if it was more like Morgan the witch, Vivian, and Morgan the sister to Artoria were originally one person but something happened to her to split into three people that now lead different lives that played a hand in fate’s arthurian mythos

Sorry, but I seriously don’t agree. If you're just going to split them into three different people, keep them as three separate people in the first place. The issue of 'Morgan being Vivian' wasn't 'Morgan and Vivian can't exist in separate places and live different lives', it's that:

'Morgan being Vivian, combined with the condensed timespan of Fate's Arthurian mythos, opens up more questions than answers due to the established ages of the characters'

I was fine with Morgan having Vivian's authority, because characters borrow the 'authority' of some other character every other moment. But having Morgan actually be Vivian, therefore being Lancelot's adoptive mother, and ALSO being arbitrarily written to be Artoria's FULL sister rather than a partial sibling from an earlier relationship- it just makes things messy for no good reason.

And Morgan COULD have been 'The Lady of the Lake'. That's not a new concept- but it was a concept that worked when Morgan was... you know, allowed to be considerably older than Arthur in order for that to feasibly work. Especially considering all the pre-Arthur stuff that generally happened regarding Merlin, Vortigern, Uther, etc.

The Arthurian mythos, despite the name, didn't just... start with King Arthur. It's a story that requires setup, and Nasu wrote it so that the 'setup' is just a murky pit that requires logical jumps and purely ignoring other things in order to make it work. 

Nasu wants to have his cake and eat it to with every Arthurian character being both 'cool and young' and also having lived the full lives that encapsulated their stories, and it just makes things into a muddy mess once you look past the glamour of 'this sounds cool'. He wants to have the moral ambiguity of Morgan le Fay, but he didn’t give himself a proper setting to do so.

You know whole Morgan having three different personalities probably worked a bit bitter if it was more like Morgan the witch, Vivian, and Morgan the sister to Artoria were originally one person but something happened to her to split into three people that now lead different lives that played a hand in fate’s arthurian mythos

Sorry, but I seriously don’t agree. If you're just going to split them into three different people, keep them as three separate people in the first place. The issue of 'Morgan being Vivian' wasn't 'Morgan and Vivian can't exist in separate places and live different lives', it's that:

'Morgan being Vivian, combined with the condensed timespan of Fate's Arthurian mythos, opens up more questions than answers due to the established ages of the characters'

I was fine with Morgan having Vivian's authority, because characters borrow the 'authority' of some other character every other moment. But having Morgan actually be Vivian, therefore being Lancelot's adoptive mother, and ALSO being arbitrarily written to be Artoria's FULL sister rather than a partial sibling from an earlier relationship- it just makes things messy for no good reason.

And Morgan COULD have been 'The Lady of the Lake'. That's not a new concept- but it was a concept that worked when Morgan was... you know, allowed to be considerably older than Arthur in order for that to feasibly work. Especially considering all the pre-Arthur stuff that generally happened regarding Merlin, Vortigern, Uther, etc.

The Arthurian mythos, despite the name, didn't just... start with King Arthur. It's a story that requires setup, and Nasu wrote it so that the 'setup' is just a murky pit that requires logical jumps and purely ignoring other things in order to make it work. 

Nasu wants to have his cake and eat it to with every Arthurian character being both 'cool and young' and also having lived the full lives that encapsulated their stories, and it just makes things into a muddy mess once you look past the glamour of 'this sounds cool'. He wants to have the moral ambiguity of Morgan le Fay, but he didn’t give himself a proper setting to do so.