Ascended Astarion In Fanon: A Deranged Psychopath, Cazador 2.0, Who Locks Tav/Dark Urge In The Basement

Is there anything you can share there? He loves wool and socks or something.

Newbon: Yeah. There’s a thing where Astarion always checks his nails when he is trying to just dominate people. He dismisses them with a head turn, usually to the left. He does this to put people in their place, to make them acutely aware that he’s in control.

Actually, one thing I can tell you—the base pose that he has, which is this very upward movement, arms open—that was something that we experimented with. That was actually a combination of myself and Josh Weeden, who’s one of the directors on the game. We came up with that together. They wanted a unique base pose. The footing is different from everybody else’s. But then I added this sort of open arms up and his head up, looking down his nose at everybody.

So the reason that his head stands like this is a psychological thing. He thinks everybody else is beneath him, so he looks down his nose, which is why the head is slightly angular. That is a very particular habitual choice that we made to inform more about the character. Literally, I look down my nose, and that’s why his stance is like that.

I think there are a couple of other characters that have unique base poses, but most have the same base pose. He’s one of the unique ones.

Oh, it seems UA fans are attacking the bride theory again. Especially the ones who were dying on a Larian forum because of how they wanted fear and victim faces for AA in kissing. When Larian made faces appropriate for Valentine's Day content, accused Larian of romanticizing abuse. Can you imagine - yeah, not even play, you do a romance with a vampire for fun in the game, and then 👁👄👁 Shitawn-fans

What polite analysis afterward, because there is still a way to say that AA fans are spreading toxic misinformation.

Astarion: pain, buried in the ground, blood given willingly makes a true vampire. Lore DnD5 and BG3 You drink vampire blood that is given willingly = you are a true vampire.

Tav: no pain is shown Tav doesn't remember how it was, use UA logic that Astarion is lying and for amusement agree with charisma - still a failure. No burying in the ground, Blood given willingly and spreads the power of ascension, so Tav does not burn like Astarion spawn after the final battle. Barovia and Strahd from lore Ravenloft mentioned several times in BG3.

The theory has inconsistencies, like the amount of blood. Still Tav's turn is not usual and does not follow the canon of DnD5 and BG3. The bride theory explains why this is so.

Larian specifically wrote those differences, specifically gave Tav blood, purposefully even italicized.

I really don't think people who want to see Astarion on path of evil as a sexual abuser want to talk about lore DnD and be able to make any kind of unbiased analysis of lore. Maybe you think so, but I'm convinced: not in this case.

I have always perceived the act of kneeling in the scene where Tav undergoes the transformation into a spawn not merely as an act of submission, but as a kind of oath-taking ceremony. In D&D lore, vampires possess a lawful evil alignment, which is inseparable from strict principles of hierarchy. Astarion calls Tav his consort, emphasizing not only his power and status but also Tav's crucial role in his plans. This also symbolizes their union within the framework of vampiric hierarchy and the new life that will begin after Tav's transformation.

Consort is a title traditionally used to refer to the spouse of a monarch. In the context of a royal family, a consort does not hold the rights of a ruler but serves as an important figure in public and state affairs.

It is particularly noteworthy that it is right after the night of the turning that Astarion first calls Tav his consort, which I personally cannot see as mere coincidence unless he intentionally imbued the event with ritualistic meaning. Such wording is undoubtedly steeped in an aura of regal solemnity, which is especially remarkable for Astarion, given his yearning for grandeur and liberation from his former subordinate position.

When Tav knelt before Astarion, I was reminded of the painting «The Coronation of Napoleon» by the French artist Jacques-Louis David. The painting depicts the moment when Napoleon Bonaparte crowns his wife Josephine during the ceremony held in 1804 at Notre-Dame de Paris. Napoleon stands on an elevated platform in his imperial attire, including a luxurious cloak trimmed with ermine, as he places the crown on Josephine's head himself.

Meanwhile, in the developer's note to the animation tag for this scene in the game, it says: «Tav kneels before Astarion. Astarion stands proud before the Player. He is powerful. He is free.»

I have no doubt that Astarion was indeed imbuing this moment with a special ritualistic meaning. He wants Tav to acknowledge his supremacy by kneeling before him, as if it were an oath-taking ceremony. This is not just an act of dominance but a kind of ritual with profound cultural and historical undertones.

Undoubtedly, this scene is filled with clear eroticism, which perfectly aligns with Astarion's love for decadence and theatrics. I find this quite amusing, and I'm sure Astarion also enjoyed playing with this subtext, giving the moment a particular sexual tension and sharpness. All of this comes together in a quirky pattern, creating an exceptionally rich scene where cultural and erotic motifs intertwine.

Kneeling is a gesture that carries a variety of meanings depending on the cultural, historical, and social context. It is commonly associated with expressions of respect, submission, devotion, or acknowledgment. In a religious context, kneeling symbolizes reverence before a higher power, humility, or repentance. For example, in Christianity, people kneel before an altar or during prayer. In some religions, the gesture signifies a plea for help, mercy, or forgiveness. In a monarchical context, kneeling has been used as part of rituals such as knighting ceremonies or being admitted into the circle of royal privileges. In the feudal context of the Middle Ages, vassals knelt before their liege lord as a symbol of loyalty and submission. This act was often accompanied by kissing the hand or a symbol of authority (such as a sword or crown). In a romantic context, kneeling is a gesture symbolizing a marriage proposal, as well as an expression of respect, admiration, and love.

For myself, I highlight the following:

Acknowledgment of sovereignty — kneeling before a monarch symbolizes submission to the authority of the crown and recognition of its legitimacy.

Acceptance into the circle of royal privileges — in this context, the act can be interpreted as a ritual of initiation, where kneeling marks entry into an exclusive circle, granting access to the advantages and status associated with monarchy.

Astarion perceives himself and Tav as something superior to all other beings, stemming from the fact that Tav becomes a vampire. He believes that the transformation of Tav into a vampire grants them the opportunity to become "something more," elevating them to a new level. This transformation not only makes Tav a vampire but also symbolizes their entry into a special, elite category of beings who possess power and authority beyond the reach of ordinary mortals or other creatures. For Astarion, as a vampire, this means that Tav can now share in his greatness.

Astarion: You are stronger now. Better. You will thank me one day, I am sure. Astarion: You will be stronger, swifter, sharper, but you won't be different. You were already perfect before. It's hard to improve.

An expression of respect and devotion — such a gesture underscores reverence for the monarch as a divine or political symbol.

Kneeling as an act of humiliation:

In Astarion's thoughts, one can discern that he views Tav’s decision to stay with him and become his spawn as something indicative of degradation, perhaps even moral decline.

When Tav agrees to become Astarion’s spawn, it can be interpreted as a conscious act of self-sacrifice, where they relinquish equality in the relationship and willingly submit to him. This step symbolizes the rejection of personal autonomy and the acceptance of absolute dependence. Tav entrusts their life entirely into his hands. Astarion: You have given me everything. Thank you.

Astarion likely perceives such a decision as a form of "degradation," believing that a normal person, from his perspective, would not make such a choice. He tries to understand why Tav would do this and concludes that Tav derives a certain satisfaction from such a dynamic, perhaps even having an inclination toward it. Narrator: But perhaps you wish to degrade yourself. And he knows it.

This explains his surprise when Tav, contrary to his expectations, asks for tenderness. It’s simply not what he anticipates. His reaction reveals confusion and forces him to reassess Tav’s motives, as such a request goes beyond the scenario he had envisioned.

Astarion: So, tell me what you desire. What can I do for my dearest pet? Player: I want you. I want your body. Astarion: You've earned it. But don't you want more - don't you want eternity? One more bite is all it would take. As for Welch's remark that Astarion "won’t respect you," this narrative only applies to the phrase "I want your body," which itself is not required in the game. This line adds an interpretative layer but is not central to all the possible interactions between Tav and Ascended Astarion.

Baudelaire Welch: He's literally looking down on you because you are someone in that situation who believes you deserve sex as a reward. He will give it to you, but he won't respect you.

In essence, the entire narrative about the sexualization parallels the scene with Araj in Act 2, where the player asks for sex as a reward for defending Astarion before Araj or helping with Yurgir's murder. And although Welch desperately tried to impose this motif in the Ascended route, limiting roleplay, it is not the only one, and far from the most obvious. There are other reasons to help Astarion with the ritual, and even he is aware of them:

Astarion: Of course I understand love. All too well. The gravest crimes committed in this world are committed for love. A hunger crueller than bloodlust.

Many also overlook that Tav's consent to become his spawn is seen by Astarion as an expression of exceptional trust and devotion. His gratitude the following morning confirms this: he sincerely expresses appreciation for the trust shown in the very first phrase he addresses to Tav. Astarion: You are so beautiful... And you will be beautiful forever. Thank you for trusting me. Moreover, trust becomes the leitmotif of his dialogues afterwards, especially when their relationship with Tav is questioned or criticized by their companions. Each time, he emphasizes that their relationship is built on this foundation:

Karlach: You know, Astarion, I'm not sure I can trust you anymore. You're… different. A bit scary, to be honest. Astarion: I have one person who trusts me completely. That's enough for me. Lae'zel: You have shared your new power with your lover, Astarion. I'm surprised - I expected you to turn your back once you got what you wanted. Astarion: Quite the opposite - I need someone I can trust. And now I know they'll never betray me.

Unfortunately, in the kiss scenes of Patch 6, the original context was lost, and the focus shifted to themes of fear and humiliation that were not present in the original dynamic with Ascended Astarion. Considering that the kiss scenes were based on the scene of Tav’s transformation into a spawn, which is almost obvious, their emotional tone was distorted. For example, initially, Tav knelt entirely of their own free will, which emphasized the intentional and voluntary nature of their decision. In the kiss scenes, on the contrary, Tav is shown kneeling out of fear, the source of which remains unclear. Throughout the game, it is never shown what consequences Tav could fear for refusing to do so. In the transformation scene, Tav can refuse and not face any frightening consequences.

It also seems illogical when Tav is frightened when Astarion grabs them by the throat. This contradicts the transformation scene, where Tav themself initiated it, asking Astarion to hurt them and even tilting their head back, exposing their neck.

Astarion: It will only hurt a bit, the pleasure will be far greater than the pain. Player: Oh, come on. Let it hurt.

In the kiss scenes, however, this dynamic, based on mutual consent, was changed to an act of violence. This further exacerbates the inconsistency, especially considering that in the original script of this scene, it was noted that both Tav and Astarion derive pleasure from what is happening.

In dialogues, Ascended Astarion also demonstrated a willingness to be tender with Tav when Tav expressed it through words. He was not solely focused on rough dominance, as was attempted to be imposed in Patch 6. This change is likely an attempt by Larian to please the audience who, without going through the Ascended route and without understanding its nuances, actively promotes the narrative of the collective majority about the cycle of abuse.

Yes, the facial expressions in the kiss animations were changed due to fan requests for the Ascended route, but the aftertaste and consequences of these changes remain.

Some players still argue that facial expressions in role-playing games should be imposed "for the sake of the great narrative," while others use game conventions, such as cyclicality of animations, to demand the return of scared expressions. However, bringing back this dynamic would undermine the story and the character that fans of Ascended Astarion have known and loved for six months after the game's release.

In my opinion, to expand the role-playing experience, it would be much more useful not to return the scared expressions as an option, but to add the possibility for the lord to use more standard kisses, similar to those in Patch 5.

It is unclear why many are convinced that the vampire lord is incapable of tender kisses with Tav when his love scene demonstrated just this tenderness, and the moment with the kiss on the hand is one of the most refined and delicate romantic episodes. In particular, the kiss on the hand, which happens after the "be gentle" option is chosen, not only emphasizes Astarion's attention to Tav's desires and his willingness to listen, but also contradicts the notion of his exclusively dominant and cold nature.

If Astarion is capable of expressing such tenderness in intimacy, why is it excluded that the same softness could be maintained in his kisses?

The kiss in Patch 6 would only make sense if, upon choosing the "be gentle… if you can" option, Astarion ignored Tav's request, and his actions were no different from those in the "let it hurt" option.

I would also like to draw attention to the sharp contrast in Tav's facial expressions in the bite scenes, written by different writers. In Act 1, when Astarion was written only by Stephen Rooney, Tav's facial expression shows ecstasy, and this same expression is repeated in the lord's love scene, which, according to Welch, they did not write.

However, in the transformation scene, which, as Welch confirms, was written with their involvement, Tav's facial expression is noticeably different.

It’s not fear, like in the kisses from Patch 6, but the expression conveys a "problematic/kinky" mood — a term that Welch themselves used to describe this scene. This looks particularly strange in the dialogue where Tav explicitly asks to be hurt:

Astarion: Shall we have one last night together before you join me in immortality? One for the road, so to speak. Player: We shall not. I just need you to bite me. Astarion: Impatient are we? Well who am I to deny you?

This suggests that Welch’s views on "kinks" are at least debatable, and this influences how they are portrayed in the game. For example, Welch sees the transformation into a spawn as an "irreversible sex-pact/kink/form of gratification," but Tav's reaction in this scene is somewhat more uneasy than in previous episodes involving similar actions.

Both scenes are consensual, but they have a different tone simply because one of the writers condemned the player for "kinks," while the other did not.

In the cinematic context for the transformation scene, the following was stated: "You are naked and vulnerable before him." This feeling, it seems to me, is what the animators tried to convey and embody, capturing the intimacy of the moment. However, with the release of Patch 6, this message became distorted, turning into something entirely different — crude and devoid of the original subtle undertones.

In this context, I believe that the kisses from Patch 7 appear much more consistent compared to the facial expressions in Patch 6.

Especially when considering the following points:

Astarion grabs Tav by the neck solely at the player's initiative, and the dialogue clearly implies that Tav wants this.

Tav has previously reacted with obvious pleasure to similar actions by Astarion in other scenes.

I genuinely do not understand why Baudelaire Welch's contribution should be considered more significant, given that they joined the project during the later stages of the game's development. Especially when you consider that the character was originally created by another writer, who laid the foundation for his personality, story, and key traits. Prioritizing late additions that distort the original concept seems unfair and disrespectful to Astarion's creator and his vision.

At this point, I would like there to be an option in the game to kiss Astarion's hand. A hand kiss is also a symbolic gesture that conveys respect, devotion, submission, and acknowledgment of power or authority. I find this incredibly romantic, and I truly miss it. It would further emphasize the symbolism of this route.

My boys...

Ascended Astarion reaction to “I'll do it. I'll become a mind flayer”.

One of the interesting moments in Astarion's Ascension arc – in scriptural and cinematic point of view - is when Tav informs Astarion that they is not afraid of becoming an illithid.

(for Astarion, illithids are “it”. Justified by lore they lose all personality when they become one, except in the rarest of cases, it's Illithid roulette where the chance is far from 50\50)

Astarion clearly expresses that he doesn't want this and partly in an ironic (sassy) way.

And then this happens:

NodeContext: Trying to be assertive, but faltering

He looks at Tav straight in the eye, but then he thinks for a second, “if not… If it's unavoidable”. puppystaron

A whole body language here is just as brilliantly done.

There are many gestures in this scene before these two phrases, he suggests using the hammer with a pointing gesture “look, we have this other option.” But I'll focus my attention on these two. In the beginning Astarion “indicates”, he wants to show authority and say “no” clearly, then he “crosses out” in the air with his index finger such a suggestion, clenching the fist of his other hand. He's also outraged - he waves his arms around - no, no this all won't happen. That's his emotion. Then he realizes that it is simply impossible to say “no” to this, it is necessary to solve this problem, Astarion opens his palms as if to say “wait”, “then we will think”. Here, too, he wanted to be confident, assertive. And this is his faltering moment, his left hand clenches a couple times for seconds. Realizing that he's confused he wants to pull himself together, clenching both fists again already from his desire to be firmer, confident.

“We'll figure it out. I am sure”.

Next part main analytics of what he's talking about and how deep it is.

He's faltering exactly on the word “I”. Maybe it's here because: And who am I? A worm, weak and pathetic - who never amounted to anything. Astarion heard this throughout the 200 years of his torment. Cazador had insinuated it to him all along - the helplessness and doom of his condition. He's used to a position where he just has to resign himself to it. It's the aftermath of his deep wound.

And then it clicks “no”. We won. Cazador is dead. And I am Lord. We'll figure it out. “I am sure of it”.

He wants to, very much, his feelings here play colors and all the developments that have taken place. But the practical side of the situation… which he realizes inside makes him have feelings and think thoughts he would never want to think about - loss. And what kind of loss? His love.

I've written about the “We” part of the big analytics here before. Astarion uses it many times. This moment is special and precious because he uses "We" in a stressful and dangerous situation, when his confidence after a grand victory and freedom is suddenly shattered again. And his wound is open.

Astarion is used to no one helping him. His usual phrases are “trust no one”.

I remember in situations of danger, he showed only distrust that anyone could help him except himself. That's quite a lot.

When the emotional contact happens in act 2 his feelings with Tav become deeper and true. (although in Act 1, Astarion felt something that was just building up to wanting real and more)

This moment is important because:

- he expresses his “I”.

- that he doesn't just say “We” when he's proud and puffed up. “We rule, we are beautiful.” He says “We” when a problem needs to be solved. That's what makes this We special. And under stress that he's even stuttering (!). It's a huge step, as if to say, he doesn't push Tav away, his first thought on how to solve this problem - relies on us. It's also a comfort to him. In addition, his tone becomes very soft - he's trying to calm Tav down so they can figure something out, too. Including “wait” gestures are the soothing “take your time, calm down, we'll think about it” movement.

As soon as he felt the pain from his wound, he remembers the most important. It's his trust and confidence in each other.

We can do it together.

At the end, I suggest enjoying Astarion against a backdrop of blue space nebulae.

Sketched out a scene ✍️

«The first stage is usually characterized by the creature feeling a dark joy in its new powers. It is overwhelmed by the sense of power engendered by its strength and its supernatural resilience. Newly-formed vampires will often assume animal form for the pure and simple-minded joy of flitting as a bat over the forests of the night or running, seeming tireless, with a pack of wolves.» — Van Richten's Guide to Vampires, TSR, 1991.

Hello, Welch's spawn. I think when it comes to ascension, people tend to make up too much.

«He hides his hurt and insecurities behind that mask of the villain, behind his facade of power and dominance. Under it all he’s still the frightened spawn cowering in the kennels.»

Neil Newbon: We're just using completely different status shift changes as well. So whereas he has a lot of flow and all that kind of stuff and it's theatrical and distracting — it's always 'look over here and don't see how I really feel' with spawn Astarion.

With Lord Astarion, we talked a lot about the idea that the cover is now off completely. So that you see him at his most terrible, and it's completely honest and he doesn't have to pretend anymore. So he loses a lot of the flamboyance and the fun of the theatricality, which is all a distraction anyway. That's all distraction so you don't see how he's hurt and damaged and his vulnerability. Lord Astarion doesn't need that anymore. So we just thought, okay, now mimics taking off a mask it's off. He doesn't need to pretend, he doesn't need to do too much.

It’s no secret Astarion hates himself. Like he deals with a lot of insecurities and self loathing. He just puts on an act of self confidence and narcissism to properly play the role of sexy vampire.

But I think a lot of people miss when he Ascends this gets so much worse. Not only does he still think he’s only good for sex and has nothing to offer beyond that. Now he’s a monster, not by force but by choice. He choose to become a monster. Now he’s expanded his act from sexy vampire to evil sexy vampire. He’s playing the villain because that’s what he thinks he is. And as we know he’s really not that great at acting.

I think it’s interesting everyone always talks about seeing through Astarion’s facade but when it comes to him ascending they’re so quick to fall for his act all over again.

There’s the line “if you stay with him he will always see you as degrading yourself” in his post ascension romance scene. A lot of people interpret it at face value as he hates and looks down on Tav. But I think it’s miss understood because he could never hate Tav as much as he hates himself. Infact I’d say he has Tav put up on the highest pedestal. He sees them as the kindest most caring person in the whole world. He adores them and holds them in the highest regard. That’s why them wanting to be with him so much they would even put themselves beneath him is the ultimate degradation. It’s also why he feels he has to turn them because he doesn’t believe there’s any reason they’d choose to stay with him of their own free will while at the same time he can’t bare to loose them. He can’t wrap his head around the idea that you could actually love a monster like him.

If you say you want freedom in the reunion party he panics. Why would you want freedom? To leave him? You want to leave him? Why? When he’s given you the only things he’s good for; luxury and sex. That’s the only reason you choose him in the first place. He’s desperate to make Tav happy. With out Tav he has nothing. He is nothing.

He hides his hurt and insecurities behind that mask of the villain, behind his facade of power and dominance. Under it all he’s still the frightened spawn cowering in the kennels. And there’s no one he’s more desperate to hide this from than Tav lest they realize their mistake of caring for him and leave.

Regarding the claim that the lore of vampire brides is supposedly outdated because it’s based on Van Richten's Guide to Vampires, published in 1991, and that this lore isn’t mentioned in the current edition of DnD 5e, specifically in the 2021 edition of Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft:

First of all, vampire brides are also mentioned in Van Richten’s Monster Hunter’s Compendium from 1999.

But most importantly, the 2021 edition of Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft directly references Van Richten's Guide to Vampires.

So…

If we disregard the lore of Ravenloft (even though the game clearly alludes to it) and focus solely on the game itself:

Player: How does someone become a vampire, exactly? Astarion: It's simple. Just find a vampire that will drink your blood and turn you into a vampire spawn: their obedient puppet. In theory, the next step is to drink their blood. Once you've done that, you're free and a true vampire. Player: 'In theory'? Astarion: People think the biggest threat to a vampire is a cleric with a stake. It's not. The biggest threat to a vampire is another vampire. They're scheming, paranoid, power-hungry beasts. So why would any vampire give up control over a spawn to create a competitor?

Player: So they bite you, you bite them? Astarion: Yes and no. The problem is once you're a vampire spawn, they completely control you. They have to allow you to bite them. And why would they do that? Vampires are power-hungry creatures. They won't lose a servant to create a competitor. Trust me. It doesn't happen.

Once AA gives Tav his blood, they can no longer be considered a spawn—according to the lore, they become a true vampire. This is confirmed both by in-game dialogues and the D&D 5E lore on which the game is based.

Astarion: Nearly two hundred years and I never came back. Not since the night I woke up down there. I had to punch a hole in the coffin and claw my way through six feet of dirt. Then when I finally broke the surface, retching up dirt and congealed blood, Cazador was waiting. From that day on I was his. Until today. Moreover, we never see AA mentally controlling Tav the way Cazador controlled his spawns—which would be undeniable proof of their status as a spawn. The game only presents a dialogue about freedom, which does not contradict the concept of Tav as a bride but also does not confirm any magical control that could prove otherwise.

So if you believe that the Bride Theory is unfounded and that the process of becoming a vampire bride doesn’t align with what is shown in the game, then consider this: it has even less in common with the process of becoming a spawn. The turning into a spawn is described in detail in the game, and clearly not without reason—and Tav's/Dark Urge's turning is not just different in some aspects, it has absolutely no similarities with it.

No matter which lore you take, Tav is not a spawn.

Maybe I should make a post with counterarguments to all the most common arguments against the Bride Theory.

Ascended Astarion and how he's not like Cazador