INTERVIEW WITH SAM BARLOW AND TOMM HULETT ON SILENT HILL SHATTERED MEMORIES

INTERVIEW WITH SAM BARLOW AND TOMM HULETT ON SILENT HILL SHATTERED MEMORIES

As part of my Shattered Memories video, I decided to try and reach out to Designer Sam Barlow and Producer Tomm Hulett to ask them some questions. And I was delighted that they said yes! I couldn't fit everything into my video, but what they shared was too interesting not to post somewhere in its entirety! HERE IT GOES:

What was it like building the profiling system and what kind of resources did you tap into? I read that professionals helped and even analysed some of the team members! What psychological test was most surprising and interesting to you?

SAM: It was a deep dive into psychometrics! Yeah we spoke with academics who had done work into eye tracking. We put the team through a battery of personality tests to have some data to work off of. I worked with a therapist who insisted I attend sessions as a patient and genuinely, in order to make things credible. The most fun (surprising!?) anecdote is that we were working off the 5 factor personality model, which is the popular one. The fifth factor of the 5 is psychopathy. But we ended up dropping that factor because we found that everyone naturally behaves a bit like a psychopath when playing a game! So it kinda skewed the data.

TOMM: My related answer - As soon as I read the pitch with the psych profiling and how it would change the game world, I instantly (if slightly presumptuously) demanded to Produce the game. This was the type of outside-the-box thinking that I felt suited Silent Hill as a brand, but could also drive it forward with new innovations that would surprise players. Management granted my request, and I made it my personal mission to protect this feature from outside meddling, and to evangelize it across Konami.

In regards to elements of the game (character appearances, dialogue etc.) being tailored to the player’s profile, were there any other features you would have liked to implement that would also change depending on the profile? Also any other things you would have liked to have affected the profile? I saw mentions of Mii data and the Weather Channel for example!

SAM: I think always it was a question of how deep we could go -- the more specific we got, the more money it would have cost! So there were compromises in terms of the number of variations. We'd go in asking for as much as we could think of and then end up compromising and picking the key ones. Could always have used more hairstyles, outfits, or set dressing! It was particularly tight on things like monster animations -- those had to be generic, but fit against any additional animation bones, say an udder -- rather than be unique to each form. The way they moved could have been a real nice differentiator.

Yeah, we really wanted to do some stuff where we pulled in the player's Mii data, or tapped into the local weather/time for their console. But all of those things ended up being things that would have possibly upset the Nintendo guidelines, so we kinda skipped over those. We wanted to find as many ways we could make the player feel seen, and add to the feeling that the Harry they were making was tied to them.

I read that when speaking to some of the developers of the original game, you sought to understand some of their goals with the first title in order to aim for those same targets in SM. What were those goals? Was there anything the developers would have liked to do for the first game (but couldn’t for whatever reason) which were then included in SM?

SAM: Hmmm, I'm not sure we spoke directly to anyone for SH:SM. I know we had access to some people at Konami on Origins, but it was slightly difficult -- a lot of the files/documentation didn't exist anymore, so it wasn't always straightforward to tap into intentions -- as well, SH:1 was kinda of a miracle and product of a very particular moment in time so I think a lot of how the original turned out was organic. We certainly wanted to make something that would feel -- in a fresh way -- like the original felt; rather than rehashing it in a way that would feel like diminishing returns. We wanted to take some of the themes of the first game, and also some of the ideas thrown out by 2 and 3, and take them to a place that was a little bit more lived in. Like there was a vibe I got when going into the K. Gordon house in SH1 that felt so real and domestic and it had a real presence... walking into a domestic living area, that atmosphere of it being abandoned, the proximity of the horror to the domesticity, the uncanny feel. We wanted to tap into that. And to remind people that it was snowing in Silent Hill 1!

Sam, was there anything you took from SM that applied to or evolved in your future games? I think I first noticed your mark the second the VHS intro started playing with a menu in the style of a typical TV interface, the use of technology as an immersive viewpoint in your other titles has been something I’ve always loved!

SAM: Yeah, clearly I have a real interface-within-an-interface thing going on! You could argue that the principal's office puzzle is basically Her Story 0.1! I definitely enjoyed the use of the frame narrative and the idea we had that 'the player is not the protagonist' -- the idea that you create tension between the main character and the player, and explore that for dramatic effect. We deliberately kept shifting POV (3rd to 1st person) and introduced time jumps to create a disconnect with Harry. Also a lot of the way the profile system worked -- vector math and fuzzy logic underpinning choices, rather than binary trees -- has been something I've used in every game since. Under the surface the way that Her Story or Immortality knows about its scenes and connects things, and plays music, etc. is all using a similar setup.

Not a question, but I adored how going into the options/quit game menu would also display that TV interface style, like Cheryl’s view was that outer layer in the narrative that gets peeled back at the end. Reminds me of the use of the screen reflection in Telling Lies in a way!

SAM: Yeah, again, I think this is clearly my thing! Creating layers *between* the player and the narrative in a way that can actually help with a kind of immersion.

I read in a few interviews that it was an important point that every player could finish the game, with some adjustments kicking in if players were struggling. Where do you think your philosophy of prioritising players getting to experience the full story over the possibility of them getting ‘stuck’ at a difficult obstacle in the game came from? Did that stem from personal frustration you have with other games? Do you think this philosophy contended with the existing SH fanbase who were used to the perhaps more unforgiving nature of survival horror conventions?

SAM: I think if you're going to give the player something 'different', you also need to balance that out with a kind of generosity. You can't ask them to meet you halfway and then keep punishing them. It's also very much a truth that the more you make players repeat things, the more you make them stuck, the more they see the illusion -- they start to see the clockwork, the seams of the experience. So it was very important to me that we help players move smoothly through this experience to properly deliver our emotional payload.

Yeah, I think there's definitely a minority who look for a very specific game template and equate difficulty/obfuscation (and the resulting padded game time!) with the kind of survival horror experience. I don't think Shattered Memories was a game for them, in that sense. For me it's all in service of engaging the player. Sometimes challenge can do that. But the classic survival horror template definitely can also take that too far.

I read that Cold Heart turned into SM as Konami had greenlit a SH1 remake, although SM was a reimagining instead. As a result, there seemed to be a little disconnect between the marketing and what the game actually was. What were some of these differences?

SAM: I guess if there was a disconnect ultimately it was that there were probably high up bosses who thought this was a very traditional remake (just with Wii controls?) rather than a reimagining. That was something that I'm not sure was ever run all the way up the chain! But I think generally marketing got that aspect -- we would reference Battlestar Galactica and they liked that comparison. Really the big disconnect was that we'd made a game from the (new) Wii audience and most of the marketing went into positioning it as a 'gamer's game on the Wii.' That was a real missed opportunity to be honest.

What were some of the challenging aspects of making a reimagining with existing characters as opposed to brand new characters? Were there some advantages even?

SAM: I think it was all upside for us. It's great to have something to start with that you can then springboard off of. And a lot of the intent of SH:SM was that we would create a weird Deja Vu for people who *had* played the original -- a sense of things being recognizable but also very different. That was a whole extra level of vibes and emotional responses that we could tap into. This was much more fun than, say, Silent Hill: Origins where it was all downside... there it felt like we were making fan fiction, having to embellish and add small details to an existing story that had no real spare room or need for those embellishments!

Now that there have been many years to reflect, were there any ideas that you wished made it into the game? Or anything you think would have been better to have been changed or removed?

TOMM: Late-ish in development after getting a lot of feedback and considering how consumers might react, I pitched Climax on adding an element of threat and tension to the "normal" world. Nothing like overt combat or enemies, but just something so the player wouldn't feel entirely safe. This didn't go in obviously, but I sometimes wonder how it may have changed initial reactions from players.

(still third question I hit enter accidentally)  Also I wish the western releases of the game didn't have a bug making one ending harder to get than intended.  That's the main regret.

I think the only other SH game to have pushed the series out of its comfort zone as much as you did with SM is PT. Do you think players/critics these days are more accepting of change in their favorite franchises than they were when SM released? How did you feel when you first saw PT? Was there some specific joy in seeing the series you worked on go into a new direction like SM did?

TOMM: PT was the first (only?) SH game I got to experience after leaving Konami and I certainly think it owes something to SHSM. I'm very proud that our game was essentially a "walking simulator" before that term existed, and how favorably it compares to the notable games of that type, when we were charting our course without a map as it were.  On the right day, I do think critics now are more accepting of changes and I think we owe the indie scene for that a bit. Many critics even EXPECT new titles to change up familiar elements, rather than sticking in the same molds.  That said, fans are still fans. When they hear about a strange new mechanic in a series they love, I hope they remember first-person Resident Evil, Yakuza RPG, and maybe SHSM, and give it a fair chance.

SAM: Maybe? We're definitely living through an age of renewed nostalgia and backwards thinking. So many reboots and remakes! So maybe now is the wrong time to push franchises in fresh directions. Which is a shame. But outside that, I think the audience is definitely open to new experiences and the definitions of genres have expanded. P.T. was great -- I loved how it was delivered, the impact on players. To be honest, in all likelihood how things turned out was probably best? I can't imagine the full Silent Hill reboot ending up having the same impact that P.T. (and it's being lost to time!) was able to generate? I definitely appreciated the ways in which P.T. recalled some of the non euclidian domestic stuff we did in our later 'nowhere' sequence, and just that sense of immersion in a domestic space.

What do you think the legacy for SM was? Any lasting effects you feel were left on the series or community, maybe even the horror genre as a whole?

TOMM: (kind of answered a bit above but we'll try). I hope SHSM takes some of the credit for expanding what a "horror" game can be. It was pretty strict beforehand, you had your RE-style actiony games, and your SH-style atmosphere games that that's how the genre was judged. Horror games these days have such a huge range now and it's wonderful. Weird text-driven meta things, or PS1 throwbacks like Signalis. It's great. Horror only works when it surprises you, so I'm glad it all doesn't fit into 2 rigid definitions anymore.

SAM: Clearly a lot of what we did in SH:SM ended up becoming quite standard -- the flight rather than fight gameplay; the sense of open, immersive spaces with no loading; the 'walking simulator' aspects of our storytelling, etc. I couldn't say whether any of that was directly because of SH:SM, or just in the water anyway! I have heard some developers call out SH:SM, so it does sometimes feel like we had an outsized reaction from particular press, or particular groups of developers -- rather than the world at large.

Sam, this is more out of my own curiosity than anything… but I read that you saw similarities in the chase sequences and an experience you had as a child. Apparently you were in Tanzania being chased by baboons around a swimming pool?! I need to know more!!

SAM: Yeah, when we were devving the first vertical slice, I was obsessed with the swimming pool area. The size of it, the dimensions, how the enemies out to flow around it. At the same time I was pushing the animators and artists to have the enemies on all fours, and hairy! This was a challenge as it made the camera very hard to program so it could see the enemy chasing you; and hair was a challenge on that level of tech. But I kept pushing. And everyone was like, 'why is Sam so set on these ideas??' Then one day I remembered and realized it all went back to this time when I lived in Tanzania and as a 5 year old was chased around a swimming pool by a pack of baboons. My memory is the adults just watched and laughed. It was very traumatic! I was trying to recreate that trauma for the players, but after that mini closure, I relented and let the enemies stand on two feet...

What were the best/most fun parts of development for you?

TOMM: The most fun part of development for me was sharing this weird new game with so many people. Climax developed it so that the first 20-30 minutes of the game were our "Vertical Slice" which would be used to sell the game internally. So I would present this to a room full of Konami folks and make a different person answer each opening therapy question, or make key choices along the way, and I had it all choreographed so I knew when to look at a scary image, when to call a random phone number, etc.  This same section of game was then used as our demo at E3 and Gamescom, and watching all those new players giggle at "Have you cheated on a partner?" or realize their neighbor was having a different path through the demo than they did... it's just great seeing an idea come together so perfectly. Climax hit it out of the park and I was glad to be a part of it.

Anything else you’d like to share? I love hearing fun little stories or memories about game development so feel free to let loose!

TOMM: My most frustrating presentation was showing the game in its alpha state to the head of Marketing. I was showing him the Memento you get from the dart board in the bar, and how you could turn it around to view it using the Wii Remote. He got really fixated on the dart board and tried convincing me we should spend the rest of development making darts playable.  People lose all kinds of time in GTA playing darts and stuff.  He was relentless.  I kept trying to explain the player's mindset in a horror game is different than in GTA but he kept pushing.  Needless to say we did not make darts playable.

SAM: Ooh, I don't know... um.... how about that the clinic where Kaufmann works was inspired by Frank Lloyd Wright's Falling Water building? I gave the artists a bunch of photos of this classic piece of architecture for how I wanted the lighthouse clinic to look. It was only when someone then pointed it out to me that I learned the other name for this famous building? "The Kaufmann house". Mind blown.

Apart from the playable darts, were there any other odd ideas put forward outside of the team during development? Or any other instances where you had to protect the vision for SM?

SAM: I guess we were always on the backfoot in terms of not having traditional combat (or wiimote waving crowbar action) so that was one we had to keep running defense on. Mostly we were so busy executing on all the ideas we did have that we didn't really have too much time to entertain additional ideas, so we just kept moving! Stuff like ensuring that every element of the environment was readable/made sense in the narrative/imagery, etc. was something that was a real and constant effort -- the kind of detail and involvement of the narrative team across the art that just wasn't something you normally did.

A HUGE thank you to them both for participating in the interview!! You can find them on twitter:

Tomm: https://twitter.com/Hypnocrite

Sam: https://twitter.com/mrsambarlow

#silenthill #interview