I Have No Idea Whether This Has Already Been Said But If It Is I'm Willing To Kill Myself So I Can Be

if aftg was set a bit later in the 2010s, i can imagine andrew putting "pumped up kicks" as neil's ringtone...the irony would just be too good to pass up

about to cry bc this lyric reminds me so much of the twins:

"Little Andy soft in your newborn skin,

Only one little Andy will you return again?

I believe we can renew,

and you could be my brother again"

like don't think about aaron thinking this about andrew ://// aaron and andrew love each other so much ik it in my heart of hearts

in my head andrew and neil don't do like. classic date nights out and couply shit like that no their couples' shit is much weirder. like one time they spent 3 days doing a bit where they talked to each other exclusively doing bad brooklyn accents and impressions of movie mob guys. they will periodically send each other pictures of rocks and the other will name the rock. they go on walks together and rate birds on arbitrary scales. like just *neil points at pigeon* "six out of eight. couldn't carry a coconut across the atlantic if it had to." neil gets injured and is off court for three weeks so andrew puts up a basketball hoop on the back of their bedroom door so he feels like he's practicing his aim. their basketball game has been going for 4 years now and there is a very long points tally going on a whiteboard in the kitchen. will both start drumming out a beat on one of the cats and coordinate perfectly whilst saying nothing. they're strange. the old lady who lives across the hall absolutely adores them both.

The whole "house husband Percy" agenda the percabeth fans are pushing disturbs me so much. You have no idea.

1. Is Percy not allowed to have ambitions and dreams of his own? Annabeth has her architecture. Let Percy have his environmentalism, and 'saving the sealife' hobbies that who knows-could potentially turn into a job with the right connections.

2. It's pushed by the same crowd that refuses to acknowledge that Percy is smart, let alone that he's canonically smarter than Annabeth. The same crowd that thinks he's a seaweed brain (aka stupid), and needs Annabeth to be the brains for him. It gives the impression that accomplishing anything in the mortal world is too much for Percy - he's incapable of it, he should just stay at home and do the house cleaning/child rearing and let Annabeth do all the higher thinking.

3. It also follow the dangerous trend of Annabeth's abusive tendencies in isolating Percy from his friends/family. She's already isolated him from Jason, Reyna and Rachel - the last via emotional manipulation (actively making him uncomfortable to even mention her). Imagine a life where Percy stays at home most of the time - only with Annabeth. She brings in all the money, and therefore has even more control over him. Any money he needs to see friends - bus/plane tickets, money for a vehicle/gas etc. he has to ask her permission for it. In the world we live in, money is everything. Can't do anything without it. Annabeth will have all of it, and Percy would be completely dependent on her. He wouldn't even be able to get a phone or laptop to communicate with them without asking for Annabeth's money and permission.

This is not to say that all marriage where one member is a stay at home spouse is controlling and abusive. That isn't the case. But in HoO, Annabeth has shown alarming abusive and controlling tendencies - both in controlling Percy's social life and restricting his autonomy and powers. Giving Annabeth financial control of his life would be disastrous and perfect grounds for her existing abusive tendencies to become far worse.

In regards to your post on Izuku’s self sacrificial traits, how do you think the dark hero arc plays into this? I thought the point of it was to sort of pull his self sacrificial nature back a bit with the whole “you can’t do it on your own” and “don’t kill yourself for the cause” thing. They don’t have to be mutually exclusive, i get that “bakugou looks up to Deku’s self sacrificial nature as a positive trait he doesn’t have” and “Deku should rely on others and not hurt himself” can both coexist. But they also give mixed messages narratively. Is one not condemning it while the other puts it on a pedestal?

THANK YOU!!! For taking the bait.

I've been ranting about this theme a bit because, from what I can tell, it might be the biggest point MHA is trying to make to answer the question "What is a hero?" Because of MHA's length, the points of the argument have been rather spread out. I think people's understanding of the argument has been distorted by the length of time between the points. Overthinking is the enemy here.

But really, why are people coming away from MHA with the message "Heroes shouldn't sacrifice themselves"? The message is coming from somewhere. The problem is it's probably coming from a conflation of concepts. What is self-sacrifice? That's the question that gets at the root of the problem here.

In the west, "sacrifice" has negative connotations. "Something is lost." "Someone suffers for the sake of a goal." "Someone gives up something." The focus is entirely on the pain experienced by the one sacrificing.

But the point MHA is trying to make is that there's a difference between "suffering loss" and the sacrifices a true hero makes. Izuku isn't a remarkable hero because he's willing to destroy himself at the drop of a hat. The focus is not on his drastic behavior but on the recipients of his drastic behavior. The point is, sacrifice for the sake of sacrifice is meaningless, but sacrifice for the sake of others, well, now we're getting somewhere.

It's the "for the sake of others" part that matters here. Izuku is a hero because he cares for others, because he wants to save others, and what he's willing to sacrifice to accomplish that is merely the measure of his conviction, of his heart.

The quality of self-sacrifice is a core trait measured just to gain enrollment at UA, the most prestigious hero school in the country. Self-sacrifice is fundamental to being a hero. Do you really think the point of the MHA story is to demonstrate how self-sacrifice is a bad thing, that heroes shouldn't sacrifice themselves? Do you think the rest of Class 1-A wouldn't be willing to sacrifice themselves should the need arise so long as it's in order to save someone?

The difference between Izuku and the rest of the world, at least at the beginning, is that he is sensitive to calls for help. He is able to perceive those in trouble that others cannot perceive. Others get confused by the context or are not in a constant state of listening for cries for help. Others cannot always tell when is the right time to act or if acting is the correct choice. Izuku never wavers in the face of such questions. He always acts, because he cannot help but act. It is who he is. It's his nature to be this way. And this is the spirit that slowly influences his classmates and the rest of society, this is the spirit Katsuki fears and later comes to emulate, this is the ideal Izuku admires in his hero All Might for which he always strives.

Heroes want to save, but some of them just don't know how--and Izuku teaches them how. Izuku teaches them that, for true heroes, to save others is more important than anything else they could ever want. It is more important than their self-perceived weaknesses, than their egos, than their desires for vengeance, than their small-time dreams, no matter how noble or justified or important any of those things might be. To be called a hero, one must be prepared to risk it all.

These are the traits Hero Killer Stain wishes to promote in society. These are the qualities he exonerates from assassination. A person who lives for the sake of "service to others" is the sort of person who has more right than anyone to "cling desperately to life." Society needs such people, and for that very reason such people need to stay alive. This is the collectivist ideal. If everyone is concerned for the well-being of others, then everyone is looking out for everyone else. If you're ready to save others and risk yourself to do so, others will risk themselves to make sure you make it out alive too, and thus everyone is protected. If you do end up perishing due to self-sacrifice, it is a tragedy, not self-determination, but then your actions still protected the whole, and the whole will continue to protect everyone in it to the best of their abilities because your self-sacrifice was appreciated and the spirit of your goodness carries on in others.

But that's a whole lot of waxing poetic about self-sacrifice. I did acknowledge that people are picking up a critical message. Where then is the criticism?

It comes from Shouta Aizawa.

Aizawa is the major proponent of rationality in this case. Self-sacrifice = good is not the end of the philosophy. It is as you say, something must balance it out.

People often think Aizawa's philosophy boils down to "I don't want heroes to be self-sacrificial," but that's not actually what he's saying. Aizawa's philosophy is to make the distinction between self-sacrifice and self-destruction.

"Being self-sacrificing isn't the same...as being suicidal. Many kids confuse the two. So I'll give them what they want. A 'death,' so to speak."

The hallmark of heroic self-sacrifice is that it's done for the sake of others. Self-destruction is different; it is for the sake of the self. Some people would take the chance to mask their self-destruction as self-sacrifice by looking for a way to die while saving others. That's not the point of heroic self-sacrifice. Self-sacrifice is a last resort. You save a person in trouble because you care about preserving their well-being no matter the cost, but some sacrifices are not in balance. Say someone is trapped in a room and you want to get them out, and you have a battering ram and a bomb. Should you strap a bomb to your body and explode open that door to let the person out? Wouldn't that be a heroic sacrifice to save someone? No! It's certainly a sacrifice, but it's not a heroic one. You should act to preserve ALL well-being, including your own. Use the damn battering ram.

Consider the circumstances at play in the quirk assessment test. Izuku was ready to sacrifice his entire arm, his physical constitution, for the sake of demonstrating his power. What does Izuku incapacitating himself achieve were Aizawa to let him do so? It would merely be to prove his strength to someone. No one is at risk here. No one needs saving. Izuku has no person to receive the good will of his self-sacrifice.

"Whatever you were planning...it would have inconvenienced those around you."

"You're totally useless after saving just a single person."

Self-sacrifice is still a sacrifice, which means it has costs and consequences. Who loses because of self-sacrifice? Many people. The person who sacrifices themself loses their life or well-being, which, if others asking for help are worth saving because you believe all people are equal, then you are also worth saving and in just as much need of help. Additionally, your loved ones are harmed because they care about you. And the rest of society suffers because it was better for having you in it; you can no longer save anyone else. To save the most people possible, a hero should strive to survive. A hero should strive to win.

Taken all together, you get the philosophy that allows Katsuki's team to triumph during the Joint Training Arc, which was the entire point of this match. Note how all the above logic is summed up quite succinctly by the gremlin himself.

Katsuki is dedicated to winning the match and leads the charge, but that puts him at risk of being targeted. However, he's willing to be in that vulnerable state because he trusts others to save him. That's what empowers him to put himself on the line. His goal is a complete victory, which means that self-sacrifice is considered a loss. There are costs and consequences, and heroes should do their best to mitigate them. Katsuki is doing everything in his power to reduce the necessity of self-sacrifice, but not because he thinks self-sacrifice is bad. He thinks needless self-sacrifice is bad, and so he strives to eliminate the need for it.

But that means he does acknowledge that there are times self-sacrifice is necessary. He's grown up afraid of Izuku's heart because Izuku demonstrates how easily self-sacrifice comes to him, and that puts Katsuki on the spot. Katsuki doesn't know if he is capable of self-sacrifice. Because he's so competent and strong, he's never noticed a need for sacrifice in his life. He's never had to demonstrate self-sacrifice, and if that's such a fundamental part of being a hero, Katsuki doesn't know if he really is a hero at heart.

But as I mentioned above, the reason he never had a chance to display self-sacrifice as a trait is because he lacked the ability to tell when people need saving. He looks around and sees a bunch of people who are wasting their potential. He thinks some people who seem to ask for help are much more capable than they behave.

Note how Katsuki failed his hero license exam. If Katsuki had stuck around the triage center and fought Gang Orca when he showed up, Katsuki likely would have passed. But Katsuki decided to forego battle to run around and save people. And hilariously enough, the bystanders who dock Katsuki points point out that Katsuki correctly identified them as low-priority targets to save. He's pretty good at figuring out who DOESN'T need saving. They end up docking him points because of his inappropriate tone, which is possibly the funniest way they could have said "Well you're technically right but also holy crap you're bad at this."

And that's the point. Katsuki knows saving people is important, and he perceives Izuku is the absolute best at it. Katsuki is constantly looking for a way to compete with Izuku in this realm because he has to. Katsuki wants to be the best, and to do so he has to improve in this area. Izuku pisses him off because he is extremely adept at perceiving calls for help from those who truly need it, and Katsuki notices every time Izuku is faster on the uptake. It happens at the sports festival with Shouto, which is why Katsuki considers the sports festival a loss.

Katsuki does get better at this, and that's what allows him to eventually get his hero license. Think of his behavior during the school cultural festival, where he sees his classmates trying to appease their peers out of guilt. That's people pleasing. That's ego. Katsuki won't have any of it. From his perspective, if Class 1-A wants to make sure everyone has a good time, then everyone means everyone. Class 1-A has to enjoy the festival too, and the best way to do that is to throw a badass concert. By enjoying themselves and being proud of their well-earned accomplishments, by thriving, Class 1-A demonstrates to their peers how to best win against all those tragedies that tried to bring them down. Self-deprecation for the sake of appeasing others' ill will when that ill will is unjustified is just self-gratification. It's just a way to stop feeling guilty, but the only purpose that serves is to debase yourself. Class 1-A didn't do anything wrong to the other classes, so Class 1-A does not need to atone to them. Self-sacrifice in this case brings no benefit to anyone. Instead, the classes should all be thriving together.

All of these lessons converge in the Dark Deku arc. Others express worry for Izuku's behavior because they see him as engaging in self-destruction. They want him to rest, but Izuku perceives there are people in need of help, so he can't help but save them. And not everyone condemns Izuku's behavior.

Kudou encourages it.

The problem at play in this arc is the question of power. Izuku has power, which means he is capable of saving people. And many people are in need of saving. How many people can one finite Izuku save? That is the question he is set to answer. He is facing the same question as All Might, but All Might's example was to save people while he was losing One For All. All Might had a finite amount of power that he was going to lose in time, so he decided to spend that dwindling power on saving as many people as he could. That would be the more virtuous use of his finite power.

But All Might's flaw was in rejecting the help of others when others were capable of helping him. Izuku falls into the same trap. He thinks he has to save people alone because he's the only one capable of it.

This is Kudou's spoken caveat. "Inaction is not an option," so yes Izuku needs to be acting in this moment. "That said...if there's anything that could bolster Izuku Midoriya now, it would be..."

The answer is not merely "friends." We are given the answer that Izuku needs friends at first, but this is a special type of friend. Izuku needs friends who "share his resolve," who "can match his pace...and keep running alongside him." Izuku needs comrades (nakama)! He needs friends who want to save just as much as he does. He needs friends who are just as capable as he is. That's why Class 1-A has to first demonstrate their capabilities to Izuku so that he can be convinced.

Katsuki doesn't criticize Izuku's ideals either. In fact, he openly praises them.

All Katsuki is saying here is "You're doing the right thing. Saving people, even at cost to yourself, is the right thing. We want to help. We can help. Don't reject us.

"Don't pay a price when you don't have to."

tl;dr

In a collectivist society, the ideal is that everyone looks out for each other, thus is everyone protected.

Self-sacrifice has costs to the self, to one's loved ones, and to society. The price paid must be worth the good achieved.

The virtue in self-sacrifice is that it is done when necessary for the sake of others. Anything less is self-destruction, which is harmful to society.

Heroes have a duty both to be prepared to self-sacrifice and to mitigate the need for self-sacrifice.

Rejecting the help of others who are capable of helping is to reject the collectivist ideal.

Izuku's self-sacrifice is virtuous BECAUSE IT IS FOR OTHERS' SAKES. Izuku's self-destruction and rejection of help from others are what the story criticizes.

Izuku Midoriya's nature represents the ideal of self-sacrifice because of his innate desire to save others, and Katsuki Bakugou recognizes that trait as core to being a hero and thus admires Izuku for it--but he's also afraid he doesn't have that trait for a large chunk of the story. Izuku's journey to accepting the help of others, Katsuki's journey to discovering his self-sacrificing spirit, and their mutual admiration of each other all provide the perspective for the audience to understand this ideal: heroes are those who live in service of others.

if andrew was a bit swayed by kevin, i cannot blame him in THE SLIGHTEST. kevin is like, specifically engineered to appeal to all of andrew's protective instincts:

fleeing horrific abuse from a grade-A asshole

thinks about going back to the abusive situation sometimes

needs him all the time

hot.

and on top of that, kevin tells him he's worth something and that he'll give him something to live for.

like idk what else andrew could have done. the man is not made of stone.

Nora saying Neil would have stayed at the Nest for Jean. Jean and Neil both hating Betsy on sight. Neil and Jean both being sold to a higher family like a commodity. Neil gently taking the phone from Jean's hands and saying'I've got him coach' to Wymack when Jean starts to panic. Neil asking Kevin if Jean was okay when Jeremy called. Jean wishing Neil had stayed just so someone could be with him during the harshest times of his life. Kevin being sure that Neil will be helped by Jean. Neil giving Jean time to get it together when the agents arrived. Neil protecting Jean from his abuser. Jean silently cleaning up Neil's wounds and speaking to him in french when no can hear them. Jean asking Neil to tell him that Riko is truly gone and Neil confirming without a moment of hesitation. Jean and Neil both automatically resorting to saying they're okay—I'm fine, there's nothing to talk about—whenever someone asks them. Neil originally being a backliner just like Jean. Neil telling Jean it's okay to take off the tattoo. Neil reminding Jean he's worth saving. Neil looking over his shoulder out of instinct thinking Jean would be there near him. Neil being Jean's what-if. The 3 to the other's 4. A broken promise. The misplaced forever partners.

People who don’t like Aaron Kevin Nicky for “not understanding Andrew the way Neil does” PISS ME OFF SO BADDDDDDDD bro people have different mindsets. Different worldviews. Andrew and Neil’s align in a way that’s really beautiful. But also Andrew makes no effort to understand anyone else’s perspective. NEIL makes even less. It’s not normal for people to just immediately get why someone would be acting as violently as often as Andrew does! You have to grow up around an insane amount of violence to not see what Andrew does as insane! If any of you ever met someone like Andrew you’d be fucking terrified! Most of you couldn’t even handle meeting Aaron let’s be so fucking fr! Neil and Andrew Understanding each other the way that do is so lucky and so brilliant, but you guys must end this tirade against Aaron Kevin and Nicky for “not trying to understand Andrew.”

Let’s j go through the list, ok?

If you were teenager Aaron and your brother almost killed you by locking you in a bathroom for a week for you to get clean while you were literally clawing at your enclosure (same brother who killed your mom. Btw) would you be so quick to try and understand where he was coming from? I love Andrew truly I do but that was so unfathomably dangerous.

Imagine you’re Matt and you put so much effort into getting clean and staying clean just for Andrew to literally drug you again? Jesus fucking Christ!!!! Imagine being Dan and having that done to your boyfriend!!!

Imagine being Kevin and the person who swore to protect you is choking you, with intent to do serious harm potentially even kill you (three people to get Andrew off?) because you made a promise to the person Andrew is doing this whole bit for. My god

Andrew is incredibly protective and that drives a lot of his actions and as the reader we see that more clearly because it didn’t happen to us and we never actually see these happen on paper. Andrew is not a kind character (none of the monsters are) and that’s okay. We are all attached to unkind people in real life. You can’t just justify every violent action he does by blaming other people for not truly understanding him

Exhibit A of how Aizawa's decision to pair Izuku and Bakugou was only intended for Bakugou's growth. There is no mention or concern about how Bakugou's presence stunts Izuku's growth as well. He was only concerned about Bakugou's personal stagnation.

The dadzawa characterization seems to have poisoned a lot of the fandom to Aizawa's actual earlier characterization. At least early on, Aizawa primarily treats Izuku as a burden, a strawman to tear down about All Might's brand of heroics, or as an obstacle to Bakugou's character development.

i need to give neil's description of andrew before their first kiss more attention because the way he says that the look they share is one of deep understanding, it's just that neil is about to fall off the ledge but andrew has already fallen. it's crazy to think about because both neil and andrew never rlly had a home, except andrew made one in columbia and then invited neil into it. andrew as a kid was constantly forced into moving from place to place, and neil from ten on went through the exact same experience. even during the series neil was never going to stay, while andrew agreed to stay somewhere for five years (the longest previously he'd ever stayed being two years) and then asked neil to stay himself. like i always thought of it as neil saying that andrew had already reached his breaking point and broken (see andrew's gutter comment), but it's also that andrew reached his breaking point and now is unable to see the way he's creating situations that will do the exact opposite. if that makes sense.