Thanks! I Was Wondering What Helps You Safely Deal With/ Resist Callbacks In General? I Hope I Worded

why do people say programming doesn’t exist and that it must be false memories? /gen

Lots of reasons.

Most people don't like to think about other people getting hurt. They also especially do not like to think that children are being hurt. And even more they do not like to think that child abuse is occurring while someone else who could have stopped it was there. This is why when child abuse survivors of any kind tell family members/friends who weren't abusive that so and so abused them, the immediate reaction is typically denial. Whether they accept it later on or not, the initial reaction is usually defense and denial. Even when they do accept it there is often a degree of "how could I have missed that" that these individuals express either to the survivor or to their own friends. People want to keep and uphold the view that most people around them are good. The concept of "groups of people who all decided to abuse children together" is contradictory to that worldview so they discard it, but if you ask them about specific things like child soldiers and trafficking that they have probably heard of (and also probably associate with Poor Uncivilized Third World Countries(tm) instead of happening in their own countries), they will usually say that's real.

Another reason is that most peoples' idea of programming is from media, mostly revolving around like...super powers or a person becoming basically a robot or they think it's all like cults in the woods or whatever. They think TBMC is some sci-fi thing, they don't know what it looks like, and they aren't thinking about the abuse part. And I do think that it kind of sucks that MC is the term because it does sound like some sci-fi/dystopian thing just from the name. It sounds very silly if you don't know much about it. In reality it is pretty boringly based in psychological responses to torture.

Another reason is that FMSF was very successful in their smear campaign despite being made up nearly entirely of parents who had gotten successfully sued for child abuse by their children. The fact that academics even marginally acknowledged them was a mistake IMO. Not to say that I'm not like the other girls but if a group of parents like this started making shit up around me I would simply roll my eyes and ignore them. Unfortunately, psychiatric abuse exists and the famous ones kind of screwed everybody else. Most famous one being Sybil. Instead of getting mad at psychiatric abuse occurring it became a focus on how DID itself is fake and abuse memories a person has discussed in therapy is therefore also fake.

Another is a community issue. There are individuals who saw RA survivors getting attention from court cases and decided that they would Also like to get attention and would make up stories which would eventually get debunked OR they sounded so fictional (because they were) that most people then assumed that all RA survivors were like that. There were and still are also survivors who were so desperate to be believed that they would tell their stories in great detail--except their stories usually also included lies that their groups told them which discredited them. Most of these are lies that the average person would find ridiculous and factually incorrect and so nobody would believe the rest of what they were saying.

Lastly, many RAMCOA survivors are simply not palatable. A lot of us are not the cutesy socially acceptable kind of survivors that people feel pity for and want to give a blanket. Many RAMCOA survivors especially when they first get out or first start processing this are aggressive, lash out, behave erratically, make no sense to anyone, have no/low empathy, say very socially inappropriate things, etc. This goes double if isolation from the rest of the world was a big part of the abuse. And to be clear I do not mean like...ghosts their friends or is a little snarky or has a breakdown sometimes in a cute little corner with quiet little sobs. I mean shit that you would get shunned by polite society and get the cops called on you for. The ones that don't escape (either stayed in or the group dissolved/faded over time) tend to be more stable appearing than escapees but they're still not the type of survivor people care about.

Hi everyone,

I thought I would share this interesting comparison chart between Autistic traits vs Autistic trauma. I found this pretty informal, so I hope some of you do too.

Autism Traits

Autism Trauma

Alter Roles

Host -  Co-Host can also fit into this definition. These alters handle day to day life for the most part by fronting the most. These alters can also grow up being completely unaware to the system growing up. This however, doesn’t apply to every host but can due to the foremost fronting.

ANP - Short for apparently normal part. Almost if not all systems will have an apparently normal part. These are grounded and rational individual alters.

Protector - These alters handle protecting the system. Mostly from trauma but other situations can and do apply. 

Trauma Holder - Alters who hold onto trauma are labeled as such. They handle often the memory of the trauma or emotions that come with dealing with said trauma mentioned.

Caregiver - This term is most popular with systems that have 1 littles. They are in charge of taking care of the littles and their needs. They also commonly help others in the system, especially the body.

Gatekeeper - Gatekeepers are in charge of managing switches, triggers. Another common thing gatekeepers control and or help take care of can include access to memories.

Helper -  Those who assist in the helping managing the system. Similar to gatekeeper.

Introjects - Alters who split off and resemble a fictional character and or often times real people as well.

Middles - Child alters. Except, this can fall under only 12-17. Age range may vary from system but it used to describe tween to teenage alters rather than tiny children. 1 Littles - Like Middles, Littles are a term to describe child alters. This however only includes babies, toddlers, and kids. E.G. 1-11 year olds. Again, age range may vary by system and doesn’t apply to everyone but that’s the typical standard.

Persecutor - An alter that typically harm the body. This can be siding with an abuser, negative. These alters can also commonly be introjects of an abuser. They typically have protective or protective induced logical behind their actions. They not to be demonized and are fully capable of healing, their actions however are not to be blatantly excused. Non-human Alters - These alters are - as self explainable - non-human. They can present as an animal, religious figure such as an angel or demon, or even a ghost or spirit. They are however not limited to these.

Sexual Alters - Alters that are formed to handle sexual abuse, trauma, so on. Do not guess their toleration to sexual acts because it varies between systems and alters. Just because they split off to handle sexual trauma does not mean they are comfortable with it.

Read an article about repressed anger and I'm kinda just messed up because I checked all 15 boxes.

Here's 15 signs you may have repressed anger:

1. You are busy all the time. Keeping busy is a sure fire way to have no time to feel things. This might include being quite codependent, taking care of other people’s issues instead of your own. And it often includes being a workaholic.

2. You are never angry but have constant mild depression. The problem with blocking one emotion is that it often messes up or blocks our ability to feel other emotions, too, like joy and excitement. It also takes a lot of psychological energy to keep things repressed in our minds which can leave us feeling drained, leaving some to call depression ‘anger turned inwards’.

3. You are known for your sarcastic humour.Repressed anger often parades as sarcasm, meanness, or an apathetic ‘I don’t care’ attitude.

4. You self-sabotage often. Perhaps you are always late getting to work, are a student who skips classes, or don’t respond to opportunities you want until it’s too late and you’ve missed the boat.

5. You hate rejection. The habit of repressing anger often stems from growing up in a household where showing emotion led to being silently ostracised. This can leave you a grownup with a deep fear of being rejected that surfaces in your relationships. It can also show up in your work environment, where you might get told you are oversensitive to criticism.

6. Little things really bother you. Perhaps you are the one in the office always complaining if someone puts back the milk carton into the fridge with only a drop left in it, or the one at the gym who feels really upset if someone doesn’t wipe down equipment they have used. This is because bigger repressed anger is seeking an outlet and it comes out in the form of frustration and annoyance.

7. You suffer muscle tension. Anger has to go somewhere, and often it goes to our body, leading to a tense jaw, sore upper back, or a constant tense stomach that can lead to ulcers (if this is you, you might want to try progressive muscle relaxation).

8. You suffer from ongoing fatigue, many colds or flu, or perhaps chronic pain. As well as muscle tension repressed anger can lead to anxiety, which affects sleep, which then lowers your immune system. As for chronic pain, some specialists believe that psychogenic pain (physical pain caused or exacerbated by mental and emotional factors) can be a distraction to keep oneself away from repressed emotions, although this is still considered a controversial theory.

9. You have nervous habits. Things like nail biting, chewing the inside of your mouth, orpicking at your skin can all be signs of repressed anger.

10. You struggle with addictive behaviour. It doesn’t have to be drugs or alcohol. It might be that you are a shopaholic, a love addict, an over-exerciser, or a food addict. Addiction is often a way to distract ourselves from things that feel painful, and if we are in pain over something, we are often very angry about it, too.

11. You need to be in control of your life. If we are controlling emotions, it can lead to a desire to also control our exterior environment.

12. You’ve been accused of being passive aggressive. Passive aggression happens when instead of expressing our anger directly we do it indirectly. This can include things like being nice to someone’s face but gossiping about them behind their back, or telling a partner we aren’t angry about something important like how they spent the month’s budget but calling them lazy for not putting the rubbish out.

13. You have trouble saying no. As healthy anger is what leads us to set boundaries, never showing anger often means never saying no or even realising that you can.

14. On the rare occasion you do get upset, it tends to be a blowout. You might only get properly upset once a year, but it tends to be explosive and something others live in fear of. This is what happens when there is a build up of emotions.

15. You feel happy all the time, just pure peace and love. This kind of belief about oneself generally points to some deep-rooted denial. The human mind and emotional system is not one-sided. Nobody feels great all the time. If we did, we’d never learn anything, as we grow from being challenged and by contrast – which includes not always liking what other people do and say.

[source] [source]

I just wanted to share some information that I discovered through some MedCircle videos, presented by clinical psychologist and professor, Dr. Ramani Durvasula, who sources Theodore Millon, leading researcher and theorist on personality disorders.

Can people stop pushing the idea that you shouldn’t share information about RAMCOA at all? Yeah, sharing detailed information about programming publicly or with people who don’t need it can be dangerous, but it’s already such a taboo topic to the point where a lot of survivors feel like they can’t even speak up about what happened to them. And they have the right to, they endured it.

If you’re saying “be careful how much you share about programming” that’s valid. I’ve seen a lot of people saying that and that makes perfect sense. But “don’t talk about RAMCOA” do people not realize that’s what many of the perpetrators of this type of abuse want? They want total silence. They go to insane lengths just to ensure survivors can’t talk about this. They thrive off secrecy. They’re protected by people’s ignorance. This is a widespread issue that requires a societal effort to put a stop to. How will that happen if people aren’t educated on the fact that this happens, at the very least?

I know a lot of people can use this info to hurt people or get some sick pleasure from hearing about the abuse. But that doesn’t take away the need for the existence of this to be heard and known about. It happens, people need to know that part. They just shouldn’t go digging deeper if they don’t need to. Stop silencing survivors.

hey hey

pssssst

guess what

you aren't faking

you aren't faking

you aren't faking

you aren't faking

you aren't faking

you aren't faking

you aren't faking

you aren't faking

you aren't faking

faking is a conscious choice you make.

Citing outdated research is something I've started seeing a lot of lately. This time I will focus on people utilizing Kluft's 1988 Complex MPD paper to state that polyfragmentation can be as low as part counts in the 20s, that polyfragmentation is "poorly defined and debated," and that severe abuse does not need to occur for polyfragmentation to develop. So let's break this down.

Research is considered outdated if it is 10+ years old (and in some fields, anything 5+ years old). This paper was published 34 years ago.

Kluft's sample was 26 people with 26+ parts, 24 of which are AFAB and 2 are AMAB, 94% white. This is extremely small for a research study and not At All representative of any population.

In the abstract of the paper it states this: "48 of the 76 cases reviewed [...] had dual (2) personalities. Another 12 had 3 personalities. Only 1 individual, a patient with 12 personalities, had more than 8." Emergent research at the time was beginning to show higher parts counts--it cites several authors that put the average as 2-10, 6.3, 13.3, 13.9, 15.4, and 15.8. All of these studies had sample sizes less than 100 (mostly sub-50) except for the 15.8 number which had a sample size of 355. Kluft outright states that alter count is being investigated at that point. Note the vast majority of these studies, including the emergent research, output a lower alter count than is considered average today.

Kluft states that "Somewhat arbitrarily, [he] defined extreme complexity as the presence of at least twice as many alters as the upper limit of the modal range of 8-13, ie 26 or more." Key note here is that this Kluft's personal definition of complexity (not a widespread consensus) at a time when alter count was being openly investigated as essentially an unknown (he is using the upper limit as in the extreme end of averages per the previous emergent research indications, not that this was now widely considered the average alter count). Kluft was one of the very few people who even dealt with complex cases, with most of his colleagues opting to pass them onto him (as is noted in the paper), so essentially there was very little besides his own personal opinion to go off of.

Kluft notes that his observed rate of seeing complex MPD cases "constitute approximately 15-20%" of his patients, and that his "experience with very complex cases began in 1975." This means that of the cases he was seeing over the past decade, only 15-20% of his DID cases had 26+ parts. Or, 80-85% of his clients had fewer than 26 parts.

Kluft's phrasing in this paper that "chaotic and unsafe" home environments are a pathway to complex MPD has been used lately as "proof" that polyfragmentation does not need to occur from RAMCOA or severe abuse settings and can come from simply having an unstable home environment. This is a cherry-picked phrase and should not be used as evidence, because of the next point:

His findings for people with 26+ parts: 100% experienced "long-standing severe abuse." 46% had abuse histories that were documented legally in the 70s or corroborated by witnesses. It is nearly impossible to win a court case NOW against your abuser, much less in the 70s, and having witnesses to abuse is also a marker that the abuse was severe as abusers tend to abuse when others aren't around--for them to escalate is heavy. Not to mention the 70s were much stricter about what was considered abuse. 92% were incest survivors. 58% experienced "vicious torment." 35% were RA survivors. The exact percentage isn't listed but Kluft states that in addition to the 35% RA survivors in his sample, another 1/3rd (~33%) stated that others "manipulated their condition"--due to his grouping the two together I am inclined to think that there were likely overlaps in experience with RA and this, though we can't be sure. It's important to keep in mind here that the alter count is 26+.

What this study states is not that polyfragmentation is ill-defined in 2022. What it states is that in the 1980s, researchers were still trying to figure out what the average alter count even was. Much less polyfragmentation.

This study states that among a small group of people with 26+ parts, all of them had severe abuse histories and the overwhelming majority were incest survivors. This is evidence AGAINST the claim that polyfragmentation can occur in merely unstable households, not for it. Its evidence is that severe abuse is needed to develop above average alter counts, quoting Kluft with the phrase "the more traumata, the more alters." The fact that in a study for 26+ parts, over 1/3rd were RA survivors is a significant marker of this.

Not only this, but it is evidence AGAINST the idea that high alter counts in DID are common at all. If 80-85% of Kluft's patients had under 26 parts, it would indicate that above average alter counts in the 26+ count are a minority and that would indicate that having 100+ parts would be even more so.

Now, current evidence does not support the idea of a tit-for-tat "every trauma = another alter" idea that Kluft put forth. Current evidence shows that 50% of people with DID have 10 or fewer parts, which doesn't discount Kluft's experience of 80-85% of cases having fewer than 26, but does make it more unlikely given our higher average alter count now (as in, it is likely a higher number of people have 26+ parts than Kluft thought). Currently there is a stable definition of polyfragmentation as 100+ parts (with implied complexities), for the past ~15+ years, through the training provided by OEA SIG of the ISSTD and various texts including Christiane Sanderson's Counseling Adult Survivors of CSA. But this is why we should not use decades old research as if it wholly relevant--we can use it as a reference point but it is not accurate or up to date. It's also why cherry-picking phrases in research can lead one to wildly different conclusions than what it actually stated.

I don't feel like theres a lot of resources or just even thought given to systems still like. In it. Still in, or adjacent to, the abusive or traumatic environments culpable for the development of this coping mechanism in the first place.

People will talk about persecutors and self-harmful system members, honestly, it feels like pretty much only in the context of a safe or safe-adjacent environment. And I understand. This community is really recovery focused, especially because a lot of people only realize they're a part of it because they're in recovery. When it's such a large portion of the community, its expected that they pay so much focus to it.

But when you are newly in this community, trying to work & communicate with other system members, regardless still having to heavily use that coping mechanism in the "maladaptive" way, and everyone is talking about you and your essential work & role in your system as "that one asshole trying to help, but little do they know the danger is gone and now all they are is a huge prick! ohohohoho! persecutor positivity 💖" it's just. It's honestly just infuriating.

For one! Does your persecutor feel safe or are you just telling them it is? Second. Some of us (persecutors) in the community still have to do our fucking jobs. I feel wonderful for people who can afford different coping mechanisms, whether they are still in the overwhelming environment or not. But some of us cannot. I can't always afford to have a caretaker making sure everybody feels fine and safe, sometimes I just need to get a trauma holder (who really can't fucking be here) out, and keep them out. And sometimes, that means you're gonna be fucking mean.

I just want some sympathy for who I am now. Not some fictionalized ideal of myself that "exists in the future", when this isn't needed anymore. I don't want the only narrative I hear about myself (and other persecutor types) to be that not only am I protecting myself in a "really bad way", but I have no place in this community or even my own system until I am no longer doing that. 'That', of course, being 'keeping my head above the water'. I want people to understand that the work I do can and does help, I'm valuable now, not just "in the future" when I've been fixed reformed into a protector.

I'm probably blowing this specific issue way out of proportion. I just want to feel like I'm not just automatically percieved as "that 'internally-abusive' POS every system has", especially when we as a system know it helps our situation overall, and people do seem to know that persecutors act that way for a reason. I am still experiencing that reason. Yes, there are... times when my expertise should not be employed, I do understand that I can cause unnecessary harm those times, and me and our caregiver get into spats about that kinda stuff. But as our caretaker he also understands that my "bad" actions are necessary sometimes, I am valuable even like this, (and also that he's lot better at gauging whether something needs to be persecuted away than I am, so it can be hard not to get carried away sometimes ime)..... but most importantly, he understands that I am as much affected by the situation we're in as anyone else, and right now, as long as its efficient in just getting us out the other side, anything goes.

I know I'm hurtful. I know that when we do get out of this, a lot of those resources on becoming a """""reformed""""" persecutor will suddenly probably be very helpful to me. But there has to be more sympathy (focus, resources, etc) for people in this community that still have to use these ("maladaptive") coping mechanisms. Constantly talking horribly about members of your community that are not only that way for a very understandable reason, but often have to keep being that way just so they don't end up dead, is. Not very productive or healthy for the overall community imo.

I don't really know what else to say. People still in this shit, people who need to use the skills they adapted regardless if its '"healthy", or pleasant, or palatable, we need this community. We are already here, and every single one of you has been in our place once, even if you were not aware of it. Please. Please have sympathy for me. My actions. Who I am. There is no other way I can be right now. Please.

being a system is going through years and years of abuse and torment. being a system is sitting in the shower sobbing because you don’t know who or where you are. being a system is losing year-long friends because they refuse to believe you. being a system is looking the worst parts of you in the face and going “i think we can change”. being a system is holding a child version of yourself and repeating “i love you” over and over again.

being a system is hugging yourself and saying, “hey, we’re gonna be okay.”