The-doe-prince - Mak

Snape isn’t responsible for Lupin losing his job

Let’s look at the timeline:

The Shrieking Shack drama.

Lupin turns into the werewolf.

Harry, Ron and Hermione are in the Hospital Wing.

Harry and Hermione use the Time Turner.

Snape has a meltdown in front of Cornelius Fudge and Dumbledore.

In the morning Snape tells Slytherins that Lupin is a werewolf.

Harry talks to Lupin who’s been fired.

A lot of people think that Lupin was fired because Snape told his secret. But Lupin was actually fired because he betrayed Dumbledore’s trust—multiple times, as a student and as a teacher.

Lupin knows it himself:

“I sometimes felt guilty about betraying Dumbledore’s trust, of course ... he had admitted me to Hogwarts when no other headmaster would have done so, and he had no idea I was breaking the rules he had set down for my own and others’ safety. He never knew I had led three fellow students into becoming Animagi illegally. But I always managed to forget my guilty feelings every time we sat down to plan our next month’s adventure. And I haven’t changed ...”

Lupin betrayed Dumbledore’s trust as a student when he was roaming around Hogwarts and Hogsmeade as a werewolf.

“That was still really dangerous! Running around in the dark with a werewolf! What if you’d given the others the slip, and bitten somebody?”

“A thought that still haunts me,” said Lupin heavily. “And there were near misses, many of them.

Lupin himself admits that there were many near misses. He’s extremely lucky that he didn’t infect or kill anybody. If he had, if others had found out about him, Dumbledore would have been finished as a headmaster.

Lupin’s face had hardened, and there was self-disgust in his voice. “All this year, I have been battling with myself, wondering whether I should tell Dumbledore that Sirius was an Animagus. But I didn’t do it. Why? Because I was too cowardly. It would have meant admitting that I’d betrayed his trust while I was at school, admitting that I’d led others along with me ... and Dumbledore’s trust has meant everything to me. He let me into Hogwarts as a boy, and he gave me a job when I have been shunned all my adult life, unable to find paid work because of what I am. And so I convinced myself that Sirius was getting into the school using dark arts he learned from Voldemort, that being an Animagus had nothing to do with it . . . so, in a way, Snape’s been right about me all along.

Lupin knew Sirius was an Animagus. It was crucial information. Everyone—including Dumbledore, Snape and Lupin himself—believed it was Sirius who had betrayed the Potters. Lupin was (again) extremely lucky that it turned out it was in fact Pettigrew.

The Ministry and Dumbledore did their best to protect Harry, but the whole army of Dementors was helpless against Animagus Sirius. Lupin himself is disgusted with what he did.

That betrayal is even worse, because Lupin being a teacher in the same year Sirius is on the loose is probably not a coincidence. Dumbledore must have asked the person he trusted and who knew Sirius very well. Dumbledore hoped that Lupin would have some information about Sirius and help protect Harry; being a good DADA teacher was a pleasant bonus. But Lupin failed to do the very job he was hired for.

Lupin managed to deceive Dumbledore and Snape who were both skilled in Legillimency. What’s more, during the first war Lupin probably was trying to convince other werewolves / spying for Dumbledore just like during the second war, so probably he knew at least a little Occlumency. The thing is, Lupin was hiding something the whole year (that he knew Sirius was an Animagus) and Snape saw some clues that Lupin wasn’t entirely honest. Lupin admits it too.

So let’s get back to the timeline:

Dumbledore wants to know what happened in the Shrieking Shack. He’s heard the children’s account, but he must want to hear the story of the three adults involved in the incident: Snape, Lupin and Sirius. Lupin is obviously unavailable.

We know he talks to Sirius:

“Last night Sirius told me all about how they became Animagi,” said Dumbledore, smiling. “An extraordinary achievement — not least, keeping it quiet from me.

He tells Harry this in the morning, after Lupin has left. The conversation probably took place when Sirius was arrested, after the Shrieking Shack incident but before the rescue. Lupin was in his werewolf form at that time, somewhere around Hogwarts.

The most disapointing thing for Dumbledore must be the fact that it is Sirius, not Lupin, who tells him all about Lupin’s first betrayal as a student. That also reveals Lupin’s second betrayal—that he didn’t tell Dumbledore about Sirius’ ability, even though he believed him to be the traitor.

Dumbledore must be determined to hear Lupin’s account. So as soon as the night ends and Lupin turns back into his human form, Dumbledore has a conversation with him. We know it happened because when Harry talks to Lupin, Remus has already been fired. The only way it could happen is that the Headmaster fired him personally.

Of course Snape couldn’t fire Lupin personally, he was just a teacher, he had no power to do so. The only way Snape could have had Lupin fired was to tell the Slytherins about Lupin (which he did), inform the school governors himself or have the students (like Draco Malfoy whose father was a governor) inform their parents and then wait for the governors to force the Headmaster to fire Lupin. However, there was too little time for that. Alternatively, he could have just told the Slytherins about Lupin, thus manipulating Dumbledore and forcing him to fire Lupin. BUT (1) Snape is very loyal to Dumbledore and it would be surprising if he went behind his back and endangered his position as the Headmaster; (2) there’s no indication that Dumbledore is mad at Snape. He certainly would be if Snape forced him to do something he didn’t want to do.

But Dumbledore is mad at someone else.

“Well — good-bye, Harry,” he [Lupin] said, smiling. “It has been a real pleasure teaching you. I feel sure we’ll meet again sometime. Headmaster, there is no need to see me to the gates, I can manage...”

Harry had the impression that Lupin wanted to leave as quickly as possible.

“Good-bye, then, Remus,” said Dumbledore soberly. Lupin shifted the grindylow tank slightly so that he and Dumbledore could shake hands. Then, with a final nod to Harry and a swift smile, Lupin left the office.

"Mad" is perhaps too strong, Dumbledore is rarely outraged. He’s disappointed. He isn’t emotional (neither "Oh, that horrible Snape, what did he do to my precious Lupin?" nor "Oh, you horrible Lupin, you’ve almost eaten my precious Harry Potter!"), he assesses the situation rationally. He’s rather cold. Whatever he’s said to Lupin earlier has made Remus embarrased. Lupin wants to leave as quickly as possible when Dumbledore has come to avoid further embarrasment. He knows he screwed up and he knows that Dumbledore knows it too.

We know about two conversations. But there was another adult involved in the Shrieking Shack incident, someone who Dumbledore trusts more than Sirius (whom up until that night he believed to be a traitor and a murderer) and Lupin (who let him down at least once by forgetting to drink his potion and by not staying behind in the Shrieking Shack, thus almost killing a few people, including Harry Potter—and that’s just the tip of the iceberg). Snape. However, although it’s logical for that conversation to take place, we don’t know when it could happen. After the Shrieking Shack incident Dumbledore talks to Sirius, so he couldn’t talk to Snape then. Then he suggests the children use the Time Turner. Then Snape has a meltdown and is probably too unstable to hold a rational conversation. Then finding Lupin could be a higher priority than talking to Snape since Dumbledore already knows most of what happened, Snape is biased and wasn’t present or was unconscious for the most part and Lupin right now is a danger to students and Hogsmeade villagers (including Dumbledore’s own brother).

Another thing that is worth mentioning is that Snape kept Lupin’s secret for over 18 years, including two years when he was a faithful Death Eater and Lupin was a member of the Order of the Phoenix. Snape is also deeply loyal to Dumbledore. It would be illogical for him to betray Dumbledore like that and to face no consequences for that. So, logically, Dumbledore must have given him some sort of green light, even if it was just a mild sugestion that it was up to him now.

To sum up, the adjusted timeline looks like this:

The Shrieking Shack drama.

Lupin turns into the werewolf.

Harry, Ron and Hermione are in the Hospital Wing.

Dumbledore talks to Sirius and finds out about Lupin’s first and second betrayal.

Harry and Hermione use the Time Turner.

Snape has a meltdown in front of Cornelius Fudge and Dumbledore.

At dawn Dumbledore finds Lupin and talks to him. Lupin quits / is fired.

Dumbledore talks to Snape, probably implying that he isn’t bound to keep Lupin’s secret anymore.

In the morning Snape tells Slytherins that Lupin is a werewolf.

Harry talks to Lupin who’s been fired.

Lupin got himself fired all by himself by keeping crucial information from Dumbledore and endangering students, including Harry Potter.

Snape is responsible for ruining Lupin’s reputation but not for Remus losing his job.

Snape isn’t responsible for Lupin being unable to have a job afterwards, because Remus has already had this problem.

He let me into Hogwarts as a boy, and he gave me a job when I have been shunned all my adult life, unable to find paid work because of what I am.

Somehow his empleyers knew about his condition or quickly figured it out. If Lupin had been discriminated all his adult life, it wasn’t because of Snape.

He worsens Lupin’s situation, but it’s been already bad. His situation, his prospects don’t really change after that. They were bad, now they’re slightly worse.

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the-doe-prince

7 months ago

Okay hear me out on this one, after episode 3 I’ve had a lot of theories about the cast (mainly Kinger) but one that I’ve seen no one really talk about is this.

I think if Kinger were to abstract it will indirectly cause the groups downfall. In an actual game of chess, if you lose the king you lose the game. I think I’d be cool if this is applied in a more literal sense in the circus - they lose the king they slowly start to crumble.

Perhaps there’s more tension in the group after it, maybe say Jax makes a jokey comment about how he knew I’d happen and that annoys Pomni cause she grew to really like Kinger, maybe someone else abstracts as a result of Kinger’s loss. Idk haven’t really thought further ahead, there’s honestly many ways to go about this.

Tags

the amazing digital circus pomni tadc pomni he deserves the world tadc tadc kinger kinger let’s hope this doesn’t actually happen because I fucking love Kinger please give him a happy ending

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the-doe-prince

1 year ago

I will never get over the fact that Lily didn't even ask Severus for his side of the story for Sirius' prank / attempted murder through a uncontrollable Lupin transformed into a wolf. Lily doesn't even worry about Severus, telling him outright that he should be grateful for James' intervention, trusting people more than a version of her friend she's known since she was little. Then having the nerve to say that at least the Marauders don't use black magic... Tell me Lily, magic that isn't black magic is free from any danger ? Hanging someone upside down while smothering them with soap and pulling down their underwear in front of everyone, is that less serious just because it's not black magic ? No, but seriously... I have nothing against the fact that Lily wasn't a fountain of virtue, but in reality, she was just downright an asshole. We're talking about a girl who smiled at Severus' humiliation and took the opportunity when he insulted her, clearly without meaning it, after a horrible moment, to verbally humiliate him and give up their friendship.

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the-doe-prince

1 year ago

THIS POST IS ACTUAL SO FUNNY AINT NO WAY THEY FR

A comprehensive compilation of why Severus Snape is an awful person that doesn’t deserve redemption, pity, or any kindness ever (not in any particular order):

- He is obsessed with the Marauders when they are younger, and tries to compare their antics to the actions of very real, blood supremacist, dark magic-using bullies that Snape was hanging out with and found amusing. (Edit: I’m adding that I’m not saying James and Sirius were right in their actions, I’m simply pointing that Snape wasn’t either. This post isn’t about the marauders, this is about Snape)

(DH, The Prince’s Tale, p673-674, Arthur A. Levine Books edition)

“‘They sneak out at night. There’s something weird about that Lupin. Where does he keep going?’ ‘He’s ill,’ said Lily. “They said he’s ill—’ “Every month at the full moon?’ said Snape. ‘I know your theory,’ said Lily and she sounded cold. ‘Why are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they’re doing at night?’”

- Snape was very clearly trying to out Remus and actively trying to prove his case about knowing Remus was a werewolf. (More on this later)

-Calls Lily a mudblood, and then tries to excuse his actions. Then Lily says “...you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?” Snape says absolutely nothing to defend himself on this statement, so we can only assume that it is accurate and he commonly uses a slur to describe other students around him.

-We know Snape invented Levicorpus, which we later see James use. How do you think James learned it if not because Severus had used it on him or another student before? We even see Snape use Sectumsempra on James. Sectumsempra, aka the spell capable of cutting someone open and leaving them to bleed to death. This is the kind of experimentation Snape did with Dark Magic.

-Snape was willing to sacrifice the life of a BABY without a second thought until he discovered that the child was Lily’s. Even after this, he prioritizes Lily’s life and isn’t concerned whatsoever about the life of Harry, who at this time is less than a year old.

-If Voldemort had decided that Neville was the Chosen One instead of Harry, Severus Snape would still be a death eater. He didn’t think being a Death Eater was wrong in any way- it wasn’t until he was directly affected by a childhood crush did he reconsider. James and Lily Potter fought for the light because they believed in the light. Severus Snape fought against the dark because the dark had offended him. Had Voldemort gone after the Longbottoms instead, Snape would have lived and died as the most loyal Death Eater in history. Edit: I understand that we can say ‘if’ all day long. The point here I’m trying to make is that Severus Snape is only supporting the light side because it benefits him in this situation. I’m simply pointing out that he’s selfish by nature.

-The prophecy states that the child will be born to parents that have thrice defied the Dark Lord. So therefore Lily in some way defied Voldemort 3 other times. And only now Snape wants to save her? No. It has more to do with the guilt he’s feeling for telling Voldemort about the prophecy. It wasn’t her death that phased him as much as how he’d feel if he caused her death.

-Snape hates Harry simply for the fact that Harry looks like his father. Have you ever considered how Harry would’ve been treated if he’d been a girl that looked like Lily? Edit: I AM NOT INSINUATING ANYTHING PEDOPHILIC. I am making the point that when Harry come to school, Snape saw him and recognized his childhood bully, and instead of making the mature decision and not making judgments about Harry beforehand, he just assumes that Harry will be like his father was in school. If Harry had looked like Lily, Snape would’ve been more inclined to favor him the way he did Draco or Pansy. Not in a creepy way, just in a confirmation-bias kind of way.

-Severus snape once intended to publicly kill a student’s pet as punishment for getting a potion wrong. This pet was also a gift to Neville from his Uncle for getting into Hogwarts- something that his family didn’t think would happen because he wasn’t “magic enough”. So to him- Trevor is a reminder that he is a wizard and that his family is proud of him. Then Snape wants to kill him because Neville got a potion wrong, reinforcing the idea that Neville isn’t “magic enough”.

-When Snape covers for Lupin's class (told you we’d be back here), Snape taught the DADA class and made all the students write essays on how to kill werewolves so that Lupin would have to read these when he came back from going through an incredibly painful time.

-Snape did everything in his power to get Remus fired despite the fact that Remus had spent 16+ years pretty much homeless and without a job.

(OotP, Percy and Padfoot, p302, Arthur A Levine Books edition)

“‘I know she’s a nasty piece of work, though—you should hear Remus talk about her.’ ‘Does Lupin know her?’ asked Harry quickly, remembering Umbridge’s comments about dangerous half-breeds during her first lesson. ‘No,’ said Sirius, ‘but she drafted up a bit of anti-werewolf legislation two years ago that makes it almost impossible for him to get a job.’”

Edit: So let’s do some basic math here. This happens in Order of the Phoenix. The anti-werewolf legislation was written two years prior. This would’ve been during or around The Prisoner of Azkaban. Why would somebody randomly write a piece of legislation like this? Let’s just say that there was a teacher that was outed as a werewolf and people were not happy about it. That would give pretty good reason for someone to write a piece of legislation that would make it hard for a werewolf to get a job. Not just Remus. Every werewolf. Who outed Remus to the wizarding world at large? Severus Snape. So for anyone suggesting that what I wrote below is as good as fanfiction, maybe actually read the books and pay attention to smaller plot lines.

-When Snape tells everyone that Remus is a werewolf, he’s not just telling students or their parents. He’s telling the wizarding world. Because of this, Dolores Umbridge wrote a law that made it almost impossible for Remus to find a job. So not only did he ruin Remus’s life. He ruined the life of Every. Single. Werewolf. in the UK.

-Neville Longbottom’s greatest fear is Severus Snape. Not the woman who tortured his parents into insanity, not the worst wizard of all time, not even any of his other followers. His TEACHER. And this is at an age where Neville doesn’t know everything about Snape and all he’s done. That speaks VOLUMES.

-Condones and takes part in bullying a CHILD when Hermione had enormous teeth EXTENDING PAST HER CHIN growing because of a hex, Snape says, “I see no difference.” After this, Hermione permanently modifies her teeth.

(HBP, Snape Victorious, p160, Arthur A Levine Books edition)

“‘I was interested to see your Patronus.’ He shut the gates in her face with a loud clang and tapped the chains with his wand again, so that they slithered, clinking, back into place. ‘I think you were better off with the old one,’ said Snape, the malice in his voice unmistakable. ‘The new one looks weak.’”

-Mocks Tonks when her Patronus changed when she fell in love with Remus despite the fact that his changed to match Lily’s.

-“Snape took the page bearing Lily’s signature, and her love, and tucked it inside his robes. Then he ripped in two the photograph he was holding, so that he kept the part from which Lily laughed, throwing the portion showing James and Harry back on the floor, under the chest of drawers…” She was laughing at her husband and son. People she loved dearly enough to give up her life and Snape took that and cut them out of it so he could pretend she was laughing for him. Her love in the letter was for Sirius who was the best man at her wedding and her good friend in the order. Snape took that so he could pretend her love was for him. This isn’t romantic. It’s creepy. Snape feels entitled to Lily’s love even though he’s done nothing to deserve it.

-The ONLY reason Snape protects Harry is that he’s under an obligation to by Dumbledore (who is blackmailing him, so Snape doesn’t have a choice). Snape isn’t doing it because he wants to. He’s doing it because if he doesn’t, Dumbledore could sell him out to Voldemort and he’d be killed.

-Again, when he kills Dumbledore, it’s not out of the kindness of his heart or his care for Dumbledore. It’s because he’ll be killed or severely punished if he doesn’t.

-Snape may have done good things, but it isn’t because he wants to. It’s because he doesn’t have a choice.

Essentially, at his roots, Snape is a self-centered blood supremacist who bullies people and only does good things when being threatened and emotionally abuses children because he can’t get over somebody he was attracted to in middle school and is perfectly fine killing adults and infants alike when it’s in his best interest.

I’d like to say that much of this is heavily borrowed or inspired by other writers on this app. I have tagged every user I have access to. However, if you see anything you have written on here or anything please feel free to message me or leave a comment. :)

@sadgaywerewolf @mrsmarymorstan @jamespotterwearsglasses @lance-the-kanto-dragon-master @coffeeinanebula @warmhappycat @pleurocoelus @madamebomb @thefingerfuckingfemalefury @whoopsrobots @harrypotterconfessions @beekeepermarycatherine @honeybadgersdontgiveashit @tonksnymphadora @barricadeponine @jadedlights07 @dobbysclothes @hogwartsandrec @kago-make-dean-some-pie @prongsmydeer @girlswillbeboys11 @siriusblaque @upsettingthedementors @marauders4evr @maxxiegalaxy @ghost-of-bambi

Said Snape…

An analysis inspired by my username :)

There are about 300* times in the series that Snape’s delivery of dialogue contains additional descriptives beyond “said”, giving us insight into his tone. I thought it might be interesting to take a look at what this can tell us about Snape’s character. And if you’re a fic writer looking to have your Snape reflect canon!Snape as much as possible (or even if not, and you’re looking to make choices that will distinguish him from canon!Snape), I figured this might be a helpful resource.

[Adverbs] Snape says things…

...softly or quietly, most often, followed by coldly, coolly, or icily, and then smoothly, silkily, or sleekly.

This trend holds when we look across not just adverbs modifying “said” but all verbs of speech. Here's how those descriptors are used across the books in the series:

And here's what that looks like split up by the different eras in Snape's life:

Snape is most often described as saying things “repressively” or “dismissively” as well as “calmly”, “slowly”, or “deliberately” in his double agent days, which are adverbs that convey a certain amount of control over the conversation, information, and his own temperament. Taken together, this may reflect his increased caution and the high-stakes nature of information at this stage.

Although Snape displays little patience for those not at his level even in his teenage years (“just shove a bezoar down their throats” comes to mind), his dialogue only reflects this with adverbs such as “sharply” or “curtly” once he has established himself as an authority figure. We will see a similar pattern below with verbs and adjectives conveying impatience.

[Verbs] When Snape doesn’t simply “say” something, he…

...Most often is expressing a negative emotion: shouting, yelling, bellowing or snarling and spitting. The largest portion of Snape’s shouts occur in HBP, specifically in Flight of the Prince, as he tries to direct the Death Eaters to leave and faces Harry. But looking across these first two emotionally-charged categories, about 30% of these (perhaps not surprisingly) occur in Prisoner of Azkaban, where Snape is spends a notable chunk of the book in an extremely emotional state.

However, he's not always shouting or snarling; approximately 15% of the time when he is not simply speaking, he is whispering or hissing, which complements the 25% of the time that he is speaking softly or quietly.

Let's look at this in relation to Snape's timeline:

It's fitting that the majority of Snape’s inquiries occur after Voldemort’s return, when he returns to his double agent role, gathering intelligence.

I also think it’s interesting what we don’t see in Snape’s school days. In childhood/school there’s relatively little superciliousness—instead, we see more argumentation; Snape argues, demands, pants, splutters, and backtracks.

Snape’s brand of snippy impatience and condescension (sneered/snarled/snapped, etc) is most evident in his days as a professor (before Voldemort’s return through his years as a double agent). In his deep cover years it declines; he no longer has the time and he’s focused on the task at hand.

Let's now look at the adjectives used to describe Snape's tone. Snape says things in a tone of voice that is…

...Most often soft, low, or quiet, followed by cold or icy, and then by sneering or sardonic. I find it fitting that Snape’s tone is described as impatient in GOF and HBP, both books in which Snape spends the year on tenterhooks, waiting for the axe to fall.

When we look at how these adjectives are distributed across Snape's lifetime, we can see that Snape’s vocalizations described as “terrible” only three times, and they occur at pivotal moments: Lily’s death and his own. Additionally, Snape’s unconcerned or bored tone comes out during his double agent years, and 3 out of the 4 times it is used as an affectation.

Misc. notes: It is also notable when there are a lack of descriptors surrounding Snape’s speech altogether. There are definitely fewer in the first two books, likely given their shorter length and lower reading level. However, there are three moments in Deathly Hallows that, taken together, really stood out to me: The Dark Lord Ascending, Voldemort’s visit to Hogwarts to take the Elder Wand, and Snape’s meeting with Voldemort in the Shrieking Shack (no descriptions of speech besides "blankly", up until the moment of Snape’s murder, during which he protests and lets out a terrible scream). The lack of description of Snape's speech is a neat nonverbal way to convey to us readers the flattening effect of Occlumency.

Anyway, hope this was interesting, and I’d absolutely love to hear any additional insights you all pull out of this!

*This is by no means meant to be the definitive, exhaustive analysis of Snape’s speech. This was completed doing simple searches for dialogue with “Snape” (didn’t have the raw text to write a script or anything), so it’s entirely possible that I’ve missed several instances of Snape speaking when referred to as “he” and the dialogue in question is several lines away from his name. However, I believe those cases are relatively few, so I’m fairly confident that I have a majority of the instances in which Snape’s dialogue is described with an adverb, adjective denoting tone, or with a verb other than “said”. It’s likely the remainder would follow similar trends if they are dispersed sporadically throughout the series.

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the-doe-prince

4 months ago

I couldn't say anything to you back then