Spideymanny - Thinking Of Andreil

Neil Josten lets Andrew's his cigarettes burn to the filter without taking a drag. He hates vegetables. He knows all the places you can shoot a man without killing him. He doodles fox paws on his homework. He's not scared of knives or violence or the yakuza. He is scared of cellphones and therapists and his own reflection. His favourite colour is gray. He got told he couldn't play exy with a bloody nose so he sniffed back the blood until they let him. He doesn't like movies or loud music. He hitchhiked halfway across South Carolina by pretending to be a sociology student. He gets sad when Kevin watches exy without him. He wishes he had his mother's patience instead of his father's temper. He's brilliant at manipulation. He's stupid on purpose. He was every inch a lie but his friends made him into someone real. He doesn't wear a jacket to the roof when it's cold because he knows Andrew's body heat will keep him warm. He thinks the hardest thing he's ever had to do was opening a tub of ice cream after kissing his boyfriend and not like, all the torture he's been through. Nobody is doing it like him

happy birthday neil josten and his little fox paw doodles and his fraying-at-the-hems shirts and his scary ahh smile and his electric blue bambi eyes and his unsettling demeanour and his inability to half-ass anything except for school and his fearlessness and ruthlessness and his love for maths of ALL fucking things and his zombie cowboy halloween costume and his bad temper and his smart mouth that only knows how to talk mad shit, lie, and kiss andrew and his pretty face and his four minute mile and his favourite colour being grey and his five-something languages that he speaks and his fierce devotion to exy and the foxes and jean and his insane aura and his general nonchalance and his breakfast burrito that he hid behind and his napkin that he ordered a hit on and his stalker binder and his keys and cigarettes. i will never love another the character the way i love neil josten.

In regards to your post on Izuku’s self sacrificial traits, how do you think the dark hero arc plays into this? I thought the point of it was to sort of pull his self sacrificial nature back a bit with the whole “you can’t do it on your own” and “don’t kill yourself for the cause” thing. They don’t have to be mutually exclusive, i get that “bakugou looks up to Deku’s self sacrificial nature as a positive trait he doesn’t have” and “Deku should rely on others and not hurt himself” can both coexist. But they also give mixed messages narratively. Is one not condemning it while the other puts it on a pedestal?

THANK YOU!!! For taking the bait.

I've been ranting about this theme a bit because, from what I can tell, it might be the biggest point MHA is trying to make to answer the question "What is a hero?" Because of MHA's length, the points of the argument have been rather spread out. I think people's understanding of the argument has been distorted by the length of time between the points. Overthinking is the enemy here.

But really, why are people coming away from MHA with the message "Heroes shouldn't sacrifice themselves"? The message is coming from somewhere. The problem is it's probably coming from a conflation of concepts. What is self-sacrifice? That's the question that gets at the root of the problem here.

In the west, "sacrifice" has negative connotations. "Something is lost." "Someone suffers for the sake of a goal." "Someone gives up something." The focus is entirely on the pain experienced by the one sacrificing.

But the point MHA is trying to make is that there's a difference between "suffering loss" and the sacrifices a true hero makes. Izuku isn't a remarkable hero because he's willing to destroy himself at the drop of a hat. The focus is not on his drastic behavior but on the recipients of his drastic behavior. The point is, sacrifice for the sake of sacrifice is meaningless, but sacrifice for the sake of others, well, now we're getting somewhere.

It's the "for the sake of others" part that matters here. Izuku is a hero because he cares for others, because he wants to save others, and what he's willing to sacrifice to accomplish that is merely the measure of his conviction, of his heart.

The quality of self-sacrifice is a core trait measured just to gain enrollment at UA, the most prestigious hero school in the country. Self-sacrifice is fundamental to being a hero. Do you really think the point of the MHA story is to demonstrate how self-sacrifice is a bad thing, that heroes shouldn't sacrifice themselves? Do you think the rest of Class 1-A wouldn't be willing to sacrifice themselves should the need arise so long as it's in order to save someone?

The difference between Izuku and the rest of the world, at least at the beginning, is that he is sensitive to calls for help. He is able to perceive those in trouble that others cannot perceive. Others get confused by the context or are not in a constant state of listening for cries for help. Others cannot always tell when is the right time to act or if acting is the correct choice. Izuku never wavers in the face of such questions. He always acts, because he cannot help but act. It is who he is. It's his nature to be this way. And this is the spirit that slowly influences his classmates and the rest of society, this is the spirit Katsuki fears and later comes to emulate, this is the ideal Izuku admires in his hero All Might for which he always strives.

Heroes want to save, but some of them just don't know how--and Izuku teaches them how. Izuku teaches them that, for true heroes, to save others is more important than anything else they could ever want. It is more important than their self-perceived weaknesses, than their egos, than their desires for vengeance, than their small-time dreams, no matter how noble or justified or important any of those things might be. To be called a hero, one must be prepared to risk it all.

These are the traits Hero Killer Stain wishes to promote in society. These are the qualities he exonerates from assassination. A person who lives for the sake of "service to others" is the sort of person who has more right than anyone to "cling desperately to life." Society needs such people, and for that very reason such people need to stay alive. This is the collectivist ideal. If everyone is concerned for the well-being of others, then everyone is looking out for everyone else. If you're ready to save others and risk yourself to do so, others will risk themselves to make sure you make it out alive too, and thus everyone is protected. If you do end up perishing due to self-sacrifice, it is a tragedy, not self-determination, but then your actions still protected the whole, and the whole will continue to protect everyone in it to the best of their abilities because your self-sacrifice was appreciated and the spirit of your goodness carries on in others.

But that's a whole lot of waxing poetic about self-sacrifice. I did acknowledge that people are picking up a critical message. Where then is the criticism?

It comes from Shouta Aizawa.

Aizawa is the major proponent of rationality in this case. Self-sacrifice = good is not the end of the philosophy. It is as you say, something must balance it out.

People often think Aizawa's philosophy boils down to "I don't want heroes to be self-sacrificial," but that's not actually what he's saying. Aizawa's philosophy is to make the distinction between self-sacrifice and self-destruction.

"Being self-sacrificing isn't the same...as being suicidal. Many kids confuse the two. So I'll give them what they want. A 'death,' so to speak."

The hallmark of heroic self-sacrifice is that it's done for the sake of others. Self-destruction is different; it is for the sake of the self. Some people would take the chance to mask their self-destruction as self-sacrifice by looking for a way to die while saving others. That's not the point of heroic self-sacrifice. Self-sacrifice is a last resort. You save a person in trouble because you care about preserving their well-being no matter the cost, but some sacrifices are not in balance. Say someone is trapped in a room and you want to get them out, and you have a battering ram and a bomb. Should you strap a bomb to your body and explode open that door to let the person out? Wouldn't that be a heroic sacrifice to save someone? No! It's certainly a sacrifice, but it's not a heroic one. You should act to preserve ALL well-being, including your own. Use the damn battering ram.

Consider the circumstances at play in the quirk assessment test. Izuku was ready to sacrifice his entire arm, his physical constitution, for the sake of demonstrating his power. What does Izuku incapacitating himself achieve were Aizawa to let him do so? It would merely be to prove his strength to someone. No one is at risk here. No one needs saving. Izuku has no person to receive the good will of his self-sacrifice.

"Whatever you were planning...it would have inconvenienced those around you."

"You're totally useless after saving just a single person."

Self-sacrifice is still a sacrifice, which means it has costs and consequences. Who loses because of self-sacrifice? Many people. The person who sacrifices themself loses their life or well-being, which, if others asking for help are worth saving because you believe all people are equal, then you are also worth saving and in just as much need of help. Additionally, your loved ones are harmed because they care about you. And the rest of society suffers because it was better for having you in it; you can no longer save anyone else. To save the most people possible, a hero should strive to survive. A hero should strive to win.

Taken all together, you get the philosophy that allows Katsuki's team to triumph during the Joint Training Arc, which was the entire point of this match. Note how all the above logic is summed up quite succinctly by the gremlin himself.

Katsuki is dedicated to winning the match and leads the charge, but that puts him at risk of being targeted. However, he's willing to be in that vulnerable state because he trusts others to save him. That's what empowers him to put himself on the line. His goal is a complete victory, which means that self-sacrifice is considered a loss. There are costs and consequences, and heroes should do their best to mitigate them. Katsuki is doing everything in his power to reduce the necessity of self-sacrifice, but not because he thinks self-sacrifice is bad. He thinks needless self-sacrifice is bad, and so he strives to eliminate the need for it.

But that means he does acknowledge that there are times self-sacrifice is necessary. He's grown up afraid of Izuku's heart because Izuku demonstrates how easily self-sacrifice comes to him, and that puts Katsuki on the spot. Katsuki doesn't know if he is capable of self-sacrifice. Because he's so competent and strong, he's never noticed a need for sacrifice in his life. He's never had to demonstrate self-sacrifice, and if that's such a fundamental part of being a hero, Katsuki doesn't know if he really is a hero at heart.

But as I mentioned above, the reason he never had a chance to display self-sacrifice as a trait is because he lacked the ability to tell when people need saving. He looks around and sees a bunch of people who are wasting their potential. He thinks some people who seem to ask for help are much more capable than they behave.

Note how Katsuki failed his hero license exam. If Katsuki had stuck around the triage center and fought Gang Orca when he showed up, Katsuki likely would have passed. But Katsuki decided to forego battle to run around and save people. And hilariously enough, the bystanders who dock Katsuki points point out that Katsuki correctly identified them as low-priority targets to save. He's pretty good at figuring out who DOESN'T need saving. They end up docking him points because of his inappropriate tone, which is possibly the funniest way they could have said "Well you're technically right but also holy crap you're bad at this."

And that's the point. Katsuki knows saving people is important, and he perceives Izuku is the absolute best at it. Katsuki is constantly looking for a way to compete with Izuku in this realm because he has to. Katsuki wants to be the best, and to do so he has to improve in this area. Izuku pisses him off because he is extremely adept at perceiving calls for help from those who truly need it, and Katsuki notices every time Izuku is faster on the uptake. It happens at the sports festival with Shouto, which is why Katsuki considers the sports festival a loss.

Katsuki does get better at this, and that's what allows him to eventually get his hero license. Think of his behavior during the school cultural festival, where he sees his classmates trying to appease their peers out of guilt. That's people pleasing. That's ego. Katsuki won't have any of it. From his perspective, if Class 1-A wants to make sure everyone has a good time, then everyone means everyone. Class 1-A has to enjoy the festival too, and the best way to do that is to throw a badass concert. By enjoying themselves and being proud of their well-earned accomplishments, by thriving, Class 1-A demonstrates to their peers how to best win against all those tragedies that tried to bring them down. Self-deprecation for the sake of appeasing others' ill will when that ill will is unjustified is just self-gratification. It's just a way to stop feeling guilty, but the only purpose that serves is to debase yourself. Class 1-A didn't do anything wrong to the other classes, so Class 1-A does not need to atone to them. Self-sacrifice in this case brings no benefit to anyone. Instead, the classes should all be thriving together.

All of these lessons converge in the Dark Deku arc. Others express worry for Izuku's behavior because they see him as engaging in self-destruction. They want him to rest, but Izuku perceives there are people in need of help, so he can't help but save them. And not everyone condemns Izuku's behavior.

Kudou encourages it.

The problem at play in this arc is the question of power. Izuku has power, which means he is capable of saving people. And many people are in need of saving. How many people can one finite Izuku save? That is the question he is set to answer. He is facing the same question as All Might, but All Might's example was to save people while he was losing One For All. All Might had a finite amount of power that he was going to lose in time, so he decided to spend that dwindling power on saving as many people as he could. That would be the more virtuous use of his finite power.

But All Might's flaw was in rejecting the help of others when others were capable of helping him. Izuku falls into the same trap. He thinks he has to save people alone because he's the only one capable of it.

This is Kudou's spoken caveat. "Inaction is not an option," so yes Izuku needs to be acting in this moment. "That said...if there's anything that could bolster Izuku Midoriya now, it would be..."

The answer is not merely "friends." We are given the answer that Izuku needs friends at first, but this is a special type of friend. Izuku needs friends who "share his resolve," who "can match his pace...and keep running alongside him." Izuku needs comrades (nakama)! He needs friends who want to save just as much as he does. He needs friends who are just as capable as he is. That's why Class 1-A has to first demonstrate their capabilities to Izuku so that he can be convinced.

Katsuki doesn't criticize Izuku's ideals either. In fact, he openly praises them.

All Katsuki is saying here is "You're doing the right thing. Saving people, even at cost to yourself, is the right thing. We want to help. We can help. Don't reject us.

"Don't pay a price when you don't have to."

tl;dr

In a collectivist society, the ideal is that everyone looks out for each other, thus is everyone protected.

Self-sacrifice has costs to the self, to one's loved ones, and to society. The price paid must be worth the good achieved.

The virtue in self-sacrifice is that it is done when necessary for the sake of others. Anything less is self-destruction, which is harmful to society.

Heroes have a duty both to be prepared to self-sacrifice and to mitigate the need for self-sacrifice.

Rejecting the help of others who are capable of helping is to reject the collectivist ideal.

Izuku's self-sacrifice is virtuous BECAUSE IT IS FOR OTHERS' SAKES. Izuku's self-destruction and rejection of help from others are what the story criticizes.

Izuku Midoriya's nature represents the ideal of self-sacrifice because of his innate desire to save others, and Katsuki Bakugou recognizes that trait as core to being a hero and thus admires Izuku for it--but he's also afraid he doesn't have that trait for a large chunk of the story. Izuku's journey to accepting the help of others, Katsuki's journey to discovering his self-sacrificing spirit, and their mutual admiration of each other all provide the perspective for the audience to understand this ideal: heroes are those who live in service of others.

You just don't get him like I do.

Wymack pulled a bottle of vodka out of the bag and put it down beside Kevin. “You have ten seconds to inhale as much of this as you can. I’m timing you. Go.” It was alarming how much a man could drink when he needed an emotional crutch. Wymack had to pry the bottle from Kevin’s desperate fingers afterward.

Kevin was silent for an endless minute, then said, “You should be  Court.” It was barely a whisper, but it cut Neil to the bone. It was a resentful goodbye to the bright future Kevin had wanted for Neil. Kevin recruited Neil because he believed in  Neil’s potential. He brought him to the Foxes intending to make a star athlete out of him. Despite his condescending attitude and his dismissals of Neil’s best efforts Kevin honestly expected Neil to make the national team after graduation.

“Good thing you’re not there anymore.” “Jean still is.”

“Let Riko be King,” Kevin said, with the exaggerated enunciation of the thoroughly sloshed. “Most coveted, most protected. He’ll sacrifice every piece he has to protect his throne. Whatever. Me?” Kevin gestured again, meaning to indicate himself but too drunk to get his hand higher than his waist. “I’m going to be the deadliest piece on the board.”

Before he stepped on Kevin tapped the butt of his racquet against the floor and passed his stick to his other hand. He stroked to half-court head high and left-handed and the crowd went wild.  

my favourite underrated parts of the aftg extra content

i know the fandom has a very complicated relationship with the ec but i just cherry pick the parts i like and leave the rest

everyone say thanks renee for being the first person to believe that andrew has a soul

guys manic!andrew actually was something else

yall don't get it. i FUCK with jock!andrew

+100000000000 aura points

define aura:

JUSTICE FOR PRE-CANON ANDREW

i think about this exchange every day.

PRE-CANON KANDREW BEEF IS FOR THE REAL ONES

i just fell to my knees

i think abt this A LOT

"what's in arizona?" oh you have NO idea

"the next time someone calls you soulless i might have to fight them"

when i'm having a good day then i remember this snippet

kevin not liking running is actually the realest thing ever

KEVIN DAY MY BABY

HE KNOWS ANDREW WILL PICK UP. HE KNOWS ANDREW WILL PICK UP.

KEVIN DAY THE MAN THAT YOU ARE

twinyards supremacy

bee and andrew your relationship is so special to me

rolands been knew since day 1

i just thought this was really funny

andrew's relationship w exy is something that can be so personal

THE WAY I LAUGHED

nora release a short story abt the foxes and their skiing trip and my life is YOURS

the fact that this is CANON gives me life

post-canon andreil.

KEVIN DAY IS MY PRINCESS

++++ everything abt robin cross bc i LOVE her with all my heart

The Raven Cycle feels like a faded summer begging to be remembered but it’s been so long that you can’t really recall the finer details. You just know the warm feeling it left with you, and the smell of lemonade

Nora saying Neil would have stayed at the Nest for Jean. Jean and Neil both hating Betsy on sight. Neil and Jean both being sold to a higher family like a commodity. Neil gently taking the phone from Jean's hands and saying'I've got him coach' to Wymack when Jean starts to panic. Neil asking Kevin if Jean was okay when Jeremy called. Jean wishing Neil had stayed just so someone could be with him during the harshest times of his life. Kevin being sure that Neil will be helped by Jean. Neil giving Jean time to get it together when the agents arrived. Neil protecting Jean from his abuser. Jean silently cleaning up Neil's wounds and speaking to him in french when no can hear them. Jean asking Neil to tell him that Riko is truly gone and Neil confirming without a moment of hesitation. Jean and Neil both automatically resorting to saying they're okay—I'm fine, there's nothing to talk about—whenever someone asks them. Neil originally being a backliner just like Jean. Neil telling Jean it's okay to take off the tattoo. Neil reminding Jean he's worth saving. Neil looking over his shoulder out of instinct thinking Jean would be there near him. Neil being Jean's what-if. The 3 to the other's 4. A broken promise. The misplaced forever partners.

neil “pathological liar” josten and andrew “eidetic memory” minyard make for theoretically the most implausible ship and that’s what makes them the best. “i am alive because i am forgettable so the people hunting me don’t catch me” vs “i never forget anything”

But I remember someone say that, aftg is beautiful in a way that it shows victims as those fucked up people, because trauma can change your brain. Hell, trauma CHANGES your brain chemistry. You can never be the same, some people run, some people refuse to acknowledge their feelings and some are violent, and it's not necessarily a bad thing. That's the way of things. But our society learned to love oppressed, soft and calm survivors since they're mostly silent and hate people who have an actual post traumatic reaction to things So, I personally love that Nora made for example Andrew violent because you can really see how badly traumatic events can affect you. On the other hand we also have Kevin who learned years ago to just shut up and hide from his memories. And then again, we have Renee who is able to be soft after all she went through.

imagine you’re andrew and you’ve gone through almost two decades of struggle—over a dozen foster homes and therapists, juvie, abuse, finding out you have a long-lost twin, medically-induced mania, and are viewed as a heartless threat to society even by your own family.

and suddenly you’re struck by (or more accurately, you strike) some rando little runner from arizona who throws wymack’s offer back in his face just like you did. someone who hates cops and lies to feds, who respects your boundaries but still challenges you. someone who’s not a chain smoker like you but tolerates craves the smell. someone who, for all of his lies, is not as slick as he thinks he is. someone who sees you not as a threat to others but as a threat to yourself. someone with a killer’s smile who doesn’t flinch away from anything you throw at him. someone who bears the scars of surviving childhood and hides them just like you do. someone with so much passion for exy who sees your potential, not for his own benefit, but for yours. someone who doesn’t swing but sees you as someone who is worthy of care and protection and affection.

he’s so offensively perfect i would think he’s a pipe dream too.