People Really Think That Sansa Lying At Trial On Trident To Save Her Bethrotal. As If Sansa Words Could

People really think that Sansa lying at trial on Trident to save her bethrotal. As if Sansa words could change the decision that was taken by king. They really think Sansa had power similar to the adults around her. When Ned told the truth, it didn't have impact then why king and queen will take Sansa words for evidence. If Sansa had told the truth, Cersei could easily debunk it by saying she is just a child and her confession was probably influenced by Ned. No one cared about her condition.

What's fun about this whole discussion is that everyone who condemns Sansa for being a liar ignores the minor detail that we don't know what Sansa was going to say because she was interrupted.

His eldest daughter stepped forward hesitantly. She was dressed in blue velvets trimmed with white, a silver chain around her neck. Her thick auburn hair had been brushed until it shone. She blinked at her sister, then at the young prince. "I don't know," she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. "I don't remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn't see …"

"You rotten!" Arya shrieked. She flew at her sister like an arrow, knocking Sansa down to the ground, pummeling her. "Liar, liar, liar, liar."

"Arya, stop it!" Ned shouted. Jory pulled her off her sister, kicking. Sansa was pale and shaking as Ned lifted her back to her feet. "Are you hurt?" he asked, but she was staring at Arya, and she did not seem to hear.

The next time Sansa speaks is at the end of the hearing when she begs for Lady's life. We don't know what all Sansa would have said because she only had the chance to speak 13 words.

This is similar to what happened in Arya I where Arya assumes the worst and loses her temper. It isn’t a coincidence that the pattern repeats. The author purposefully inserted that. And if Sansa was already nervous, after being tackled and beaten, there was no way she was going to recover and intervene with the truth. Let's reread that initial paragraph:

His eldest daughter stepped forward hesitantly.

First, we’re told she told Ned the truth earlier, and I think we can infer from her behavior here, he didn't coach her or assure her that the truth is what she should say. From the get go, she doesn't know what to do.

She was dressed in blue velvets trimmed with white, a silver chain around her neck. Her thick auburn hair had been brushed until it shone. She blinked at her sister, then at the young prince.

Oh, interesitng, she’s torn, she knows she is choosing between one or the other, that speaking is choosing a side.

"I don't know," she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt.

She is in way beyond her depth. Saying she doesn’t know can read as a simple “I don’t know what happened” but it is also true in the sense that she clearly has no idea what to say here.

"I don't remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn't see …"

I’m not convinced this is entirely a lie. Arya believes it is because she is primed to judge Sansa harshly, but the reader knows things Arya doesn’t. Namely, Sansa had been drinking. I do think it was hard for Sansa to comprehend what was happening in the moment and still hard for her to explain/talk about it after, not only because of the drinking, but also because of the suddenness of the escalation. It did happen fast. And, we aren’t privy to what she was going to say she “didn’t see” or what all she would have finally said (a defense of Arya or a condemnation of Joffrey) because she was stopped by the impact of a furious Arya. Describing what happened as Sansa lying (to me) gives a totally different impression than what I have when I read this section, and I think if you compare this to Arya’s first chapter you notice that while Arya assumes the worst about Sansa, we don’t necessarily know that she’s right to do so. In fact, I think knowing how Martin likes to play the POV game with us, and some of the other uncharitable things she thinks about Sansa, I’d say we know Arya isn’t right. Arya assumed Sansa was about to totally defend Joffrey, but being that Sansa already told Ned the truth, I don’t think she was about to lie. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Regardless, the choice to ignore Cersei and Robert’s roles here, the real point of the scene IMO, is very odd. Continuing:

"The girl is as wild as that filthy animal of hers," Cersei Lannister said. "Robert, I want her punished."

"Seven hells," Robert swore. "Cersei, look at her. She's a child. What would you have me do, whip her through the streets? Damn it, children fight. It's over. No lasting harm was done."

The queen was furious. "Joff will carry those scars for the rest of his life."

Robert Baratheon looked at his eldest son. "So he will. Perhaps they will teach him a lesson. Ned, see that your daughter is disciplined. I will do the same with my son."

"Gladly, Your Grace," Ned said with vast relief.

Robert started to walk away, but the queen was not done. "And what of the direwolf?" she called after him. "What of the beast that savaged your son?"

The king stopped, turned back, frowned. "I'd forgotten about the damned wolf."

Ned could see Arya tense in Jory's arms. Jory spoke up quickly. "We found no trace of the direwolf, Your Grace."

Robert did not look unhappy. "No? So be it."

The queen raised her voice. "A hundred golden dragons to the man who brings me its skin!"

"A costly pelt," Robert grumbled. "I want no part of this, woman. You can damn well buy your furs with Lannister gold."

The queen regarded him coolly. "I had not thought you so niggardly. The king I'd thought to wed would have laid a wolfskin across my bed before the sun went down."

Robert's face darkened with anger. "That would be a fine trick, without a wolf."

"We have a wolf," Cersei Lannister said. Her voice was very quiet, but her green eyes shone with triumph.

It took them all a moment to comprehend her words, but when they did, the king shrugged irritably. "As you will. Have Ser Ilyn see to it."

"Robert, you cannot mean this," Ned protested.

The king was in no mood for more argument. "Enough, Ned, I will hear no more. A direwolf is a savage beast. Sooner or later it would have turned on your girl the same way the other did on my son. Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it."

That was when Sansa finally seemed to comprehend. Her eyes were frightened as they went to her father. "He doesn't mean Lady, does he?" She saw the truth on his face. "No," she said. "No, not Lady, Lady didn't bite anybody, she's good …"

(AGOT, Eddard III)

Jaime says later that Cersei meant to have Arya’s hand which means Arya was in danger here and Ned’s reaction confirms that the author intended us to understand that in this moment. However, Lady’s fate is decided by the dynamics of Cersei and Robert, not by the events at the Trident, but Robert’s obsession with Rhaegar and Cersei’s ability to press his buttons. Not even Ned’s intervening could save her which is why I believe we’re meant to understand this scene works primarily as a continuation of the discussion of justice and how the king fails to deliver it. It also is the beginning of Ned’s downfall (taking an innocent life, a gift of the gods), and the crack in Ned’s relationship with Sansa leading to her disobedience later, but I just don’t think the point is that Sansa did something wrong. So, I agree with you that it’s silly for people’s takeaway to be that Sansa could have stopped this if she wanted. If she told the unvarnished truth it could have fed Cersei’s fury and made her demand Arya be punished more insistently and there’s no telling how much effort Robert would have put into refusing her. I think we’re meant to understand that the situation is very precarious, so precarious even Ned wasn’t sure that Arya was safe.

I wrote this in defense of Sansa a while ago

People Really Think That Sansa Lying At Trial On Trident To Save Her Bethrotal. As If Sansa Words Could

and I really think readings in which Sansa is made responsible miss them entire point of justice and injustice, Sansa as a representative of innocence, and instead substitute in a very simplistic view that does nothing for the characters or themes (link).

And of course, the association the girls have with their direwolves that Martin just established must be ignored in order to make Sansa somehow guilty here too

People Really Think That Sansa Lying At Trial On Trident To Save Her Bethrotal. As If Sansa Words Could

so I don’t think it’s stan nonsense to push back on the idea that the author intended for us to find Sansa culpable here. There are lots of reasons to doubt that (link).

To me, there’s no reason to think this ends in a better way, no matter what Sansa said, but the fact remains that Sansa was stopped before she had a real chance to relay what happened, and based on the previous interaction of the girls, based on the emphasis on Lady’s innocence and the connection between the direwolves and their girls, I think we’re meant to know better than assume that Arya’s interpretation of Sansa is correct.

More Posts from Sielutonlampikana and Others

2 years ago

Concerning Alicent's reaction to Rhaenyra's idea to marry Haelena to Jace, canon shows that Ned Stark and Stannis Baratheon (both male faves) would react no differently if someone suggested betrothing one of their kids to someone they know/believe is a bastard

It's why even if Joff was decent Ned rejected Littlefingers advice to keep the betrothal and to also betroth Arya to Tommen. It's why Stannis freaked out when whatshisname suggested marrying Tommen to Shireen. Because fair or not Westeros has certain views on inheritance.

Alicents reaction is very natural given their society

The double standards are something else

The issue of bastards is extremely hard to make modern audiences understand because most cultures, at least in the west, no longer have this stigma against them. (Although they suddenly don't have a problem with outdated historical values when it comes to excusing child brides or sexism hahahaha !)

Nyra may have actually had some good intentions there but it was still a slap in her face and she had to have known that to some degree. And Alicent was pretty chill about it next to the reactions of Stannis and Sybelle Spicer and the rest when offered a marriage alliance with a baseborn kid.

But even had she readily accepted, you know they would have found some way to spin it so she's a villain 🤦‍♀️"zomg look at Alicent trying to steal the throne by selling her OWN CHILDREN through marriage!!!1!1!?1"

2 years ago
 Billy Did Get Suspended For A Week, But It Was So Worth It.
 Billy Did Get Suspended For A Week, But It Was So Worth It.
 Billy Did Get Suspended For A Week, But It Was So Worth It.
 Billy Did Get Suspended For A Week, But It Was So Worth It.
 Billy Did Get Suspended For A Week, But It Was So Worth It.
 Billy Did Get Suspended For A Week, But It Was So Worth It.
 Billy Did Get Suspended For A Week, But It Was So Worth It.
 Billy Did Get Suspended For A Week, But It Was So Worth It.

Billy did get suspended for a week, but it was so worth it.

2 years ago

no because where the fuck did mike get the poster. like this was before the days of ordering posters online and having them shipped to your house and then offering your parents to go get the mail so they wouldnt see you bought something. mike wheeler had to go to a store to buy it. and he doesnt have a job, so how did he pay for it? his allowance maybe? but who drove him to the store to get it? you really think he went with his mom? was it maybe nancy? who would be able to clock him faster? were they with him in the check out? what fucking store sold this even? what did the cashier say when they saw it? i have so many questions it's unreal

2 years ago

Reasons I like subtitles:

1. I can see how people’s names and the cities and the countries are spelled.

2. I don’t miss any words, so everything they say makes sense.

3. I get to know what background noises and conversations are.

4. The descriptions of the noises people make are freaking awesome. Ex: splutter, grunt, chuckles.

5. I can see who says what.

6. I don’t have to have the volume super loud so I can hear the dialogue, and I don’t blow my eardrums out because the ambient noises and music is SO FREAKING LOUD.

I freaking love subtitles.

2 years ago

The only reason Jon views Catelyn as a mother figure/maternal figure is because Ned neglected him enough that Jon projected that onto his father's wife. Ned neglected him by witholding any information about his actual mother and by not prividing an adequate emotional replacement for his "son", be that a maternal caretaker or his own damn self.

Ned gets praised to hell and back for the bare minimum.

But people blame Cat for Jon's issues. The actor blames Cat for Jon's issues.

It simply has to be the woman's fault.

The expectation that Catelyn was supposed to act as an actual mother figure to Jon in any official capacity is a massive misogynistic doubel standard that entirely hinges on ignoring the context of the setting and Ned's responsibilities and on insisting that women have the obligation to provide for the emotional needs to male characters regardless of their own self-interest.

She never treated him "like crap". Her worst "crime" (apart from an emotional outburst at her absolute breaking point) is not being warm to Jon and regarding him with suspicion in a way he was able to detect. It sucks for Jon that he was a child and an adult in his life communicated her dislike of his presence. BUT SHE WAS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS EMOTIONAL VALIDATION. NED WAS.

I will never forgive the show for the absolute character-derailing travesty of a scene where Catelyn castigates herself because she couldn't "love a motherless child" when that is absolutely brushing aside her actual issues in the book canon. It's one of the worst examples of sacrificing a female character's storyline for a male character's validation in the series, and it's on par with Sansa "thanking" the Hound for his abuse or telling Tyrion he was "the best of them", or utterly ignoring Shae's murder.

It cheapens Sansa's validation of Jon because it casts her actions as "making up" for Catelyn (or her own "awful" past, which, don't even get me started on that nonsense). Like it's something Jon is owed by either of them, instead of something Sansa gives to Jon because she she chooses to, because she sees him as worthy of it on her own accord and because of his own actions.

No, instead she has to apologize for not being his #1 stan from day one, like a "good" female character would have been (like Arya). Liking and loving and validating Jon is framed as a default standard, and deviating from it is immediately a transgression that has to be compensated for.

Male-centric, misogynistic nonsense.

My hats off to Kit for giving this mess some thought, but unless his show actually examines the angle that Cat wasn't the bad guy, that the person who withheld emotional validation and crucial information from him was Saint Ned the Honorable... I can't take it seriously.

2 years ago

emily said i see your posts about photos of actors in period dramas doing Normal Things on set while in full costume and i will raise you video footage of heavily pregnant teenage alicent doing tiktok dances

1 year ago

ok I knew Jaskier was a master of the seven liberal arts but I had no idea what they actually were until I looked them up and wouldn’t u know it, astronomy is one of them, which encompasses navigation, mathematics and actual physics. Now I’m laughing at this thought:

Some mage who Geralt got hired to kill a monster or smth for idk: damn this equation I’m doing for a spell isn’t working

Jaskier, a bard who the mage saw being yelled at by Geralt earlier because he tried to fuck the Lord’s son and nearly succeeded: that’s because you’re doing it wrong lol

Mage: you are literally a bard wdym

Jaskier, a bard who has the equivalent of a physics masters degree: yeah and


Tags
2 years ago

I mean, I do get Catelyn’s POV and I sympathize with her, but rereading the part where she tells Ned she won’t have Jon in Winterfell always pisses me off. Especially when my siblings are close to his age, like, that’s a baby, ma’am. My mind has been changed on Catelyn in the past few years, but I’m never going to get over her. She is not invited to my house.

But it also brings up the fact that Ned is the real villain of this story, because he should have planned for Jon’s future from the start. It’s really stupid how he just sort of never seems to have considered ANY of the kids’ inevitable need for resources.

Like, for example, Arya and Sansa should have dowries and lands of their own being held in consideration at this point, and SOMETHING(land, keeps, money) should have been put aside for the boys, including Jon(which would have been standard practice IRL). It’s also pretty silly how Robb’s marriage apparently isn’t even being considered at this point?

Arya comes across as even more of a spoilt brat on the reread. I realized this isn’t just a class. There are a bunch of ladies with them, indicating that Cersei must have brought SOME kind of household, or that she has one for Myrcella. So Arya throws her tantrum in what amounts to a social gathering and leaves her sister and the septa to clean up afterwards.

Also, cute when she does her little sulk about how Sansa can’t run a household because she’s not as good at math as Arya, knowing that in a few books Sansa will be running the Eyrie easily. So Arya’s chapter here is basically her being wrong about nearly everything and having a fit over it.

It still bothers me how no one seems to notice that Arya does a few stitches, notices that they’re crooked, and just gives up. I think ppl would be more sympathetic to her plight in universe if she actually tried. It seems like if she’s not immediately good at stuff, she just decides it’s stupid.

Also, why do ppl expect me to believe Arya’s being bullied? This whole thing would have been a perfect opportunity for some mean girl style bullying and the worst that happens is that Jeyne smirks a little. And given the fact that Arya thinks of Jeyne with nothing but rudeness, that’s not surprising.

She’s honestly one of the most annoying characters in this series and it makes sense that she’s so close to Jon, because my god, this dude is really just… he’s the equivalent of styrofoam touching styrofoam in human form.

1 year ago
Idea Julmasti Pöllitty Tästä Julkaisusta.

Idea julmasti pöllitty tästä julkaisusta.


Tags
  • auroraambrosia
    auroraambrosia liked this · 1 month ago
  • megancreatesmagic
    megancreatesmagic liked this · 6 months ago
  • goldensunandgoldenstallion
    goldensunandgoldenstallion reblogged this · 6 months ago
  • blackcat419
    blackcat419 liked this · 7 months ago
  • stickyglitterwombat
    stickyglitterwombat reblogged this · 1 year ago
  • stickyglitterwombat
    stickyglitterwombat liked this · 1 year ago
  • sayonara-hitori
    sayonara-hitori liked this · 1 year ago
  • eliasandsansastark
    eliasandsansastark liked this · 1 year ago
  • justalittleuneven
    justalittleuneven reblogged this · 1 year ago
  • justalittleuneven
    justalittleuneven liked this · 1 year ago
  • lizzy-limey
    lizzy-limey liked this · 2 years ago
  • knightingale
    knightingale liked this · 2 years ago
  • tired-reader-writer
    tired-reader-writer liked this · 2 years ago
  • sielutonlampikana
    sielutonlampikana reblogged this · 2 years ago
  • sielutonlampikana
    sielutonlampikana liked this · 2 years ago
  • susilves
    susilves liked this · 2 years ago
  • teenybopper2005
    teenybopper2005 liked this · 2 years ago
  • opentanie
    opentanie liked this · 2 years ago
  • thebipolartwin
    thebipolartwin liked this · 2 years ago
  • melpotter21
    melpotter21 liked this · 3 years ago
  • elegantwoes
    elegantwoes liked this · 3 years ago
  • theroadsiderose
    theroadsiderose liked this · 3 years ago
  • for-later-i-promise
    for-later-i-promise reblogged this · 3 years ago
  • dukerosesun
    dukerosesun liked this · 3 years ago
  • bluemores
    bluemores liked this · 3 years ago
  • occasionallyundulyformal
    occasionallyundulyformal liked this · 3 years ago
  • sorabriarmoss
    sorabriarmoss liked this · 3 years ago
  • deafeningherringoperaeggs
    deafeningherringoperaeggs liked this · 3 years ago
  • geeknotsochic
    geeknotsochic reblogged this · 3 years ago
  • geeknotsochic
    geeknotsochic liked this · 3 years ago
  • wisptarly
    wisptarly liked this · 3 years ago
  • josis-teacup
    josis-teacup liked this · 3 years ago
  • starksinthenorth
    starksinthenorth liked this · 3 years ago
  • the-northernqueen
    the-northernqueen reblogged this · 3 years ago
  • eonweheraldodemanwe
    eonweheraldodemanwe reblogged this · 3 years ago
  • eonweheraldodemanwe
    eonweheraldodemanwe liked this · 3 years ago
  • istumpysk
    istumpysk reblogged this · 3 years ago
  • istumpysk
    istumpysk liked this · 3 years ago
  • disneyprincessbuffyannesummers
    disneyprincessbuffyannesummers liked this · 3 years ago
  • mxmaxs-asorted-things
    mxmaxs-asorted-things liked this · 3 years ago
  • dontbipanicjonsa
    dontbipanicjonsa reblogged this · 3 years ago

she/they

291 posts

Explore Tumblr Blog
Search Through Tumblr Tags