Things Endos/tulpas Don’t Talk About Or Romanticize About DID/OSDD

I am just going to say this outright and bare with me until the last paragraph. The idea that "the few people who are faking this disorder aren't actually hurting real people with DID or taking away resources" is demonstrably false. I check around sometimes for other people looking for dissociative specialists and ever since ~2019/8, if I call and ask a therapist if they have experience with DID their questions are "does this person spend a lot of time on social media" and "have they actually been diagnosed with DID before." I've met therapists who took their dissociation specialty off of their websites because they kept getting tons of calls from people who were seeking a diagnosis and they could not keep up.

This trend where large amounts of people are claiming to have RAMCOA and polyfragmentation within the past few years, which a significantly smaller number of specialists believe in and treat, IS going to detrimentally affect survivors even quicker and harder than general DID where there are a larger amount of people involved both professionally and not. I called this a few years ago that sometime in the future polyfragmentation would be commonly considered a "fake marker" (just as prior community trends turned into "fake markers" like introjects and kid parts) and that's already started.

We need to be able to talk about community issues like this from a practical perspective for people who need those resources, without it turning into a validation discussion or a discussion about malingering or pointless discourse. We need to step away from "shoulds"--yes it is true that practitioners should not let these things affect their overall care, but it does and simply saying it should not be that way doesn't fix anything. We need practical discussions that say "We are at this point. Now what?"

Other Personality Disorders

This post is about personality disorders that used to exist in the DSM or ICD but don’t anymore. You cannot be diagnosed with these disorders, as they’re not in any diagnostic manual; you would be diagnosed with Other Specified Personality Disorder (or the ICD-11 equivalent) instead.

Passive-Aggressive / Negativistic (PA/NegPD)

A pervasive pattern of negativistic attitudes and passive resistance to demands for adequate performance, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts.

Masochistic / Self-Defeating (Ma/SDPD)

A pervasive pattern of self-defeating behavior, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts. The person may often avoid or undermine pleasurable experiences, be drawn to situations or relationships in which he or she will suffer, and prevent others from helping him or her.

Sadistic (SaPD)

A pervasive pattern of cruel, demeaning, and aggressive behavior, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts.

Depressive / Melancholic (De/MePD)

A pervasive pattern of depressive cognitions and behaviors, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts.

Other Personality Disorders

Turbulent

Turbulent PD has never existed in any DSM. It’s part of Millon’s theorised personality disorder taxonomy, but doesn’t appear in any other literature.

It seems to be an alternate way of categorising and defining hypomania & cyclothymic disorder, and is similar to ADHD, NPD & HPD.

Millon classes it on a spectrum from ebullient personality type -> exuberant personality style -> turbulent personality disorder.

Haltlose

Theorised in German, Russian, and French psychiatry.

Haltlose translates to “unstable” (literally, “without footing”) and refers to a “drifting, aimless and irresponsible lifestyle: a translation might be ‘lacking a hold' on life or onto the self)”.

“Those with haltlose personality disorder have features of frontal lobe syndrome, sociopathic and histrionic personality traits”.

Someone with haltlose PD “lacks concentration and persistence”, and “lives in the present only”. They are “easily persuaded, and [are] often led astray”.

Haltlose PD is similar to AsPD as there is “an inability to learn from experience, and no sincere sense of remorse”. They are often described as ‘lovable rouges’.

(Cullivan, R, ‘‘Haltlose’ type personality disorder (ICD-10 F60.8)’, Psychiatric Bulletin, 1998, pp. 58-59).

Immature

Immature PD was mentioned in the DSM-III as a specifier for Other Specified PD, but removed in later editions.

It seems to be a combination of borderline, histrionic, narcissistic, antisocial, dependent, schizoid and avoidant PDs.

Almeida et al. suggest the following criteria for Immature PD: irresponsibility; impulsivity; unreliability; easily swayed; mood swings; expect overindulgence from others; dependency on others; ability for remorse or regret but it’s “light and fleeting”; inability to manage assets; inability to follow plans; quick to lie; unable to delay gratification; quick to frustration; devaluation of others; risk-taking behaviour; unstable relationships and behaviour; feels both entitled and worthless; attention seeking; recklessness; shyness; ungrateful; over-familiar with others; unable to plan for the future; substance use.

They also suggest 3 subtypes of Immature PD: the dramatic and emotional subtype, the shy subtype, and the mixed subtype.

(Almeida et al., 'Immature Personality Disorder: Contribution to the Definition of this Personality', Clinical Neuroscience & Neurological Research, 2019, pp. 1-16).

Eccentric and Psychoneurotic

These two personality disorders existed only as ‘other specified’ PDs in the ICD-10, where no definition is given.

Being an autistic HC-DID system-or really any part/person that experienced torture and is autistic-is funny (in a bad way) because I’m so scared of engaging in my special interests. I’m a database for our torture and sigma+zeta programmed sidesystem which is basically I know surface level what happened but I never experienced it, I kind of just hold emotions and the idea.

Sometimes we were tortured for reading comic books and drawing. Art and writing are 2 of our then 3 then 4 and now 5 special interests. It was engaging in the “wrong ways”, as our group liked to call “sin”. Drawing was especially punished-they probably made something up about why it was worse than reading comics but it was probably because it left evidence we were at their houses.

Anyways, it’s especially painful for me to exist. Not only at I constantly anxious and panicked, I can’t do soothing activities that will help me because it’ll make things worse. But, if I don’t do the soothing activities, it also makes it worse. Stimming was also punished so I can’t do that either. I just wish we didn’t live like this.

Do you have any resources for RAMCOA? Resources for like...the types of programs and stuff like that. We're going through things and trying to research and pinpoint things, but finding resources has been absolute hell. If you get this twice, I'm sorry. Our tumblr is kind of shit.

Hello! I have several resources that I think may be helpful to you:

This document (LINK) of "rare programs" and their descriptions, posted by @killercatboys.

Chapters 4 and 7 of Becoming Yourself by Alison Miller (LINK) discuss programming and chapter 7 includes an anecdote with specific programs and definitions. The entire book is really a great read and is geared towards survivors of RAMCOA, just be sure to take it slow and take care of yourself.

Common Programs Observed in Survivors of Satanic Ritualistic Abuse by David W. Neswald (LINK) - massive trigger warning for suicide, self-harm, and abuse.

Spin Programming: A Newly Uncovered Technique of Systematic Mind Control by John D. Lovern (LINK) - includes symptoms, implementation, and uses of spin programs; trigger warning for abuse/torture methods.

Healing the Unimaginable by Alison Miller (LINK) is geared towards therapists and professionals and includes more in-depth information about RAMCOA than Becoming Yourself does. Again, massive trigger warning throughout the book for RAMCOA.

Kinds of Torture Endured in Ritual Abuse and Trauma-Based Mind Control by Ellen P. Lacter (LINK) - partial list of torture methods used in RAMCOA; trigger warning for abuse, near-death, and torture.

Mind Control: Simple to Complex by Ellen P. Lacter (LINK) - describes twelve "stages" of mind control and programming, going from outward compliance to torture/trauma-based mind control; trigger warning for descriptions of abuse.

Some Indicators of Trauma-Based Mind Control Programming by Ellen P. Lacter (LINK) provides common indicators of TBMC; most survivors of programming will have many of these indicators, but their presence does not prove the existence of TBMC and their absence does not prove that one has not experienced TBMC.

Adult and Adolescent Indicators of Ritual Trauma by Ellen P. Lacter (LINK) provides indicators of ritual abuse in teens and adults; as with the last bullet point, their presence does not prove ritual abuse and their absence does not disprove it.

Child Indicators of Ritual Abuse Trauma in Play and Art by Ellen P. Lacter (LINK) provides potential indicators of ritualized abuse in children and pre-teens; as with the previous two bullet points, their presence does not prove ritual abuse and their absence does not disprove it.

Toxic Red Flags you do, to yourself. Aka; Self Destructive Behaviours

(FYI, I've done some of these myself. Again, I'm not perfect)

Pushing people away

Pushing your friends away

Pushing your own family away

Thinking you DON'T deserve love

Thinking you are a burden to everyone

Controlling other people; what they wear, how they talk, what friends they can have and even what relationships they have

Extremely independent; refusing help (even tho, you really need it), thinking you can do everything on your own

Keep making the same mistakes BUT NEVER learning from them

Blaming your behaviour onto someone else

Blaming your condition on your actions

Lying to therapists

Lying to your friends

Lying to your family

Having double standards

Ignoring your basic needs (i.e, brushing teeth, eating good, not taking a shower/bath once a week, brushing your hair etc)

Being a people pleaser, so you avoid conflict

You expect everyone to respect your boundaries, BUT you NEVER respect someone else's boundaries (same as, double standards)

Talking about your mental health is okay BUT it's bad when someone else is talking about theirs (same as, double standards)

Trauma dumping

Everything is a trauma, including an embarrassing story that you could laugh at years down the line (example; a haircut YOU wanted, ISN'T a trauma story).

NOT accepting consent

Blocking people with no warning (same as pushing people away)

Ignoring everyone around you

Making everyone happy BUT NEVER making yourself happy

Causing arguments

Fighting and having outbursts (this can hurt people. Emotionally and physically)

Thinking you deserve less than

Self medicated (i.e; alcohol use, taking too much medicine than what your doctor prescribed, taking drugs. Weed and CBD DOESN'T count)

Attacking the ones that you love (since you CAN'T express how you feel)

Causing drama in your friendship group

Causing drama in your family

Everything has to be evolved around you

You CAN'T say "no" (same as being a people pleaser and avoiding conflict)

Being childish and and acting in a child like manner

Keeping secrets, so you're worried of back lash

Self harm

Eating too much

Eating too little

Comfort eating

Restricting your diet

Thinking you DON'T deserve food

Thinking you DON'T deserve warmth

Thinking you DON'T deserve comfort

Locking yourself away from everyone around you

Keep putting yourself into dangerous situations

Gossiping about your friends BUT the minute your friend gossips about you, you're annoyed (same as double standards)

Giving advice BUT the minute someone gives you advise, you're annoyed (same as double standards)

Having a secret life that no one knows about

Keep dating abusive people and wondering where are going wrong

Having a rude tone to people BUT when someone is being rude to you, you're annoyed (same as double standards)

Falling out with everyone

Having that mentality where you think you are always the victim and you NEVER did anything wrong

Thinking you are perfect in everyway (NO ONE is perfect)

Thinking you CAN'T make mistakes

Telling someone's secrets to people BUT the minute when someone tells your secret, you're annoyed (same as double standards)

Putting blame on abuse survivors, thinking it's their fault.

When you judge someone's interests or hobbies it's okay BUT when someone judges your interests and hobbies, you get annoyed (same as, double standards)

When you vent to someone that's okay BUT when someone vents to you, you get annoyed or get 'triggered' (same as double standards)

It's okay for you to be annoyed at them BUT when someone is annoyed at you it's 'triggering you' (same as double standards)

It's okay when you make jokes at other people BUT when someone does it to you, you get 'triggered' (same as double standards. Example; Will Smith's wife, she's fine joking about her bald head but when someone does it back, oh no you can't do that. Again, it's that double standard)

Kink shaming

Thinking you are smarter than they are

Ignoring a situation and thinking it will all go away

Ghosting someone

NOT acknowledging that you're NOT doing okay and pretending to be okay

Hiding your true feelings

Being a door mat for everyone

NEVER voicing voicing your opinions (same as, being a people pleaser and avoiding conflict)

You force yourself to stay quiet in different situations (same as avoiding conflict. Example; someone is being rude to you and you stay quiet and just nod)

Putting someone down because they don't have the same qualifications as you

Gaslighting someone and putting them down (that's straight up bullying)

You preach about your religion BUT when someone has a different religion to you and they preach that to you... You get annoyed (same as, double standards)

Hi everyone,

I thought I would share this interesting comparison chart between Autistic traits vs Autistic trauma. I found this pretty informal, so I hope some of you do too.

Autism Traits

Autism Trauma

“Having DID is rare-“

Ok and being a beekeeper isn’t the most common profession ever but I sure see a lot of them when I search “beekeepers” in online spaces.

Read an article about repressed anger and I'm kinda just messed up because I checked all 15 boxes.

Here's 15 signs you may have repressed anger:

1. You are busy all the time. Keeping busy is a sure fire way to have no time to feel things. This might include being quite codependent, taking care of other people’s issues instead of your own. And it often includes being a workaholic.

2. You are never angry but have constant mild depression. The problem with blocking one emotion is that it often messes up or blocks our ability to feel other emotions, too, like joy and excitement. It also takes a lot of psychological energy to keep things repressed in our minds which can leave us feeling drained, leaving some to call depression ‘anger turned inwards’.

3. You are known for your sarcastic humour.Repressed anger often parades as sarcasm, meanness, or an apathetic ‘I don’t care’ attitude.

4. You self-sabotage often. Perhaps you are always late getting to work, are a student who skips classes, or don’t respond to opportunities you want until it’s too late and you’ve missed the boat.

5. You hate rejection. The habit of repressing anger often stems from growing up in a household where showing emotion led to being silently ostracised. This can leave you a grownup with a deep fear of being rejected that surfaces in your relationships. It can also show up in your work environment, where you might get told you are oversensitive to criticism.

6. Little things really bother you. Perhaps you are the one in the office always complaining if someone puts back the milk carton into the fridge with only a drop left in it, or the one at the gym who feels really upset if someone doesn’t wipe down equipment they have used. This is because bigger repressed anger is seeking an outlet and it comes out in the form of frustration and annoyance.

7. You suffer muscle tension. Anger has to go somewhere, and often it goes to our body, leading to a tense jaw, sore upper back, or a constant tense stomach that can lead to ulcers (if this is you, you might want to try progressive muscle relaxation).

8. You suffer from ongoing fatigue, many colds or flu, or perhaps chronic pain. As well as muscle tension repressed anger can lead to anxiety, which affects sleep, which then lowers your immune system. As for chronic pain, some specialists believe that psychogenic pain (physical pain caused or exacerbated by mental and emotional factors) can be a distraction to keep oneself away from repressed emotions, although this is still considered a controversial theory.

9. You have nervous habits. Things like nail biting, chewing the inside of your mouth, orpicking at your skin can all be signs of repressed anger.

10. You struggle with addictive behaviour. It doesn’t have to be drugs or alcohol. It might be that you are a shopaholic, a love addict, an over-exerciser, or a food addict. Addiction is often a way to distract ourselves from things that feel painful, and if we are in pain over something, we are often very angry about it, too.

11. You need to be in control of your life. If we are controlling emotions, it can lead to a desire to also control our exterior environment.

12. You’ve been accused of being passive aggressive. Passive aggression happens when instead of expressing our anger directly we do it indirectly. This can include things like being nice to someone’s face but gossiping about them behind their back, or telling a partner we aren’t angry about something important like how they spent the month’s budget but calling them lazy for not putting the rubbish out.

13. You have trouble saying no. As healthy anger is what leads us to set boundaries, never showing anger often means never saying no or even realising that you can.

14. On the rare occasion you do get upset, it tends to be a blowout. You might only get properly upset once a year, but it tends to be explosive and something others live in fear of. This is what happens when there is a build up of emotions.

15. You feel happy all the time, just pure peace and love. This kind of belief about oneself generally points to some deep-rooted denial. The human mind and emotional system is not one-sided. Nobody feels great all the time. If we did, we’d never learn anything, as we grow from being challenged and by contrast – which includes not always liking what other people do and say.

Do you have any resources for figuring out if you've experienced OA or just resources about OA in general?

Cw: mention of gangs and trafficking, neglect, sadism, torture.

We ourselves just started to realize we also experienced OA and it's been a hellish discovery to realize. It should've been obvious but in out case it was a mix of not knowing the definition and not remembering enough.

Defining Organized Abuse (OA)

taken from a previous post here

Organized abuse is abuse done by two or more people in a pre-meditated nature. The most well known forms of OA are things such as trafficking and gangs. However this can also happen in other situations. If someone has two parents who have conspired purposefully together in order to do excessive harm to a child- that can count as OA. If two or more people conspire and plan and enact abuse upon you- it is... OA regardless if it is part of some greater group or not. The abuse must be repeated (more than one incident) and sadistic/cruel- often going far enough to be considered torture. It does not need to be done in the name of any ideology and may just be done for personal gratification or sadism.

How to know if you experienced it?

This is a super personal thing and depends on what you can remember of your trauma typically. You may have signs that make it seem like you could have experienced but it's nothing that can be 100% certain. If two or more people conspired to attack or abuse you it is a form of organized abuse. There will obviously be different levels of extremity and how large of groups are involved or not, but the nature of planned and pre-meditated abuse with multiple perpetrators differs enough from experiences that happen outside of that framework that it falls enough another category. That category being OA. We sadly cannot tell you if you have experienced something or not. And sometimes it can just be a nagging suspicion for a while.

If you have knowledge that a trafficking ring was busted later on in a place you once lived or was partially busted, be willing to be open to the idea you could have been involved if you were at risk to a reasonable degree of coming into contact with them. For us it was sever neglect making us an easy target. Or if you have gang activity in the area, and seem to know a lot more about gangs than the normal person does and have massive triggers around it more so than would be expected just from being in areas that have it- chances are you might have experienced something there too. But that doesn't make it a 100% chance either. It is just something to be aware of as a possibility and if it didn't happen you may have been adjacent enough or made aware at some point then forgot of the stuff happening in your area, which is also deeply traumatic and would be good to be aware of.

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We're not in a place where we can do much in depth research into it due to our own mental state currently so we will not be providing resources or links as we do not like pushing things out without having read them first and we cannot bring ourselves to read things that can get too close to specifics we experienced.

Note: Seeing as you are not fully certain if you have experienced this or not please do be careful. Wait to look into this until you're in an emotionally stable place. Especially the resources/information as they pretty much are bound to contain triggering content. If you feel off, bad, dissociative, or triggered, close the tab maybe turn off the device and calm down and wait at least a day to go back (we'd suggest longer but I know sometimes it's hard).

What counts as TBMC? Ex-Pentecostal wanting to know because I never really see clear and concise definitions on these things and trying to research RAMCOA gives me a lot of dodgy right wing rhetoric which I don't want to keep having to comb through for my own sanity.

TBMC is known by as two things. One: trauma based mind control. Two: torture based mind control.

Most survivors we've also ran into prefer the former because it tends to include things that are less extreme and not everyone feels their trauma went far enough to be considered torture. It's also unfortunately true that a lotta alt-righters tend to get into mind control in a more co-opting nature, which is ironic given the group that did that to us was alt-right. Honestly we find the TB to be unnecessary given mind control is always traumatic and is inherently horrific.

What counts as TBMC?

TBMC is something done primarily through abusive means to induce a dissociative state, in which one becomes more suggestible. This can be done in order to intentionally create parts/alters (when done starting on someone as a child in rare cases) or just to make someone behave the way you want them to. This is why sometimes people who are abducted by other countries as agents betray their old group and join in with their abusers. (For an extreme example). Other ways the dissociative state is achieved is through putting people into forms of trances. This can be done with meditation or mantras, forced hypnotization, and at times substances.

We've got a good mixture of both mind control and conditioning. The conditioning is done more via Pavlov's Dogs type experiences and "training" and is less tied to TBMC and typically easier to train out of. Mind control- especially in those raised with it- is driven into a part of their personality. It becomes an essential piece of the whole identity and it is not something that can be taken away without proper aid and therapy. You cannot deprogram yourself from mind control the way you can "uncondition" yourself, so to speak.

Anything that was driven into you while in a dissociative state (thus highly suggestible) or being actively traumatized that is ideological, personal, an act, behaviors, etc. is typically a form of mind control. A very common example of this is being made to be fully and completely dependent upon your leader/an authority figure. This may result in what is reminiscent of worship of the individual and in some cases leaves the victims incapable of making decisions. To this day we have to ask friends in desperation what food we should eat because the idea of deciding for ourselves is far too difficult. We roll dice connected to numbers to mark our decisions in hopes of having a way to make a choice. (And again, this is but one example.)

Some of the information we have garnered on the subject comes from a variety of sources more heavily focused upon cults as that was what we grew up in and with. We have dug deep into the information on what makes a cult a cult and what signs of specific types of cultic programming we exhibit. Even then programming can be hard to categorize and know what is meant by because it's so personal and specific in its application. I am uncertain if we are of much help- but I will say we personally see no harm in if you find spaces appropriate for it, asking if specific things you expect may be programming or signs of TBMC are able to be labeled as such. That's what we had to do to accept we were a RAMCOA survivor as we originally had less memories of the cult until given the name by our parents (to be clear we did this only because we were already in therapy and part of our recovery and work is being done in order to come out against the group and the leader, and have full legal protections as a whistle blower)