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Latest Posts by brightening-glance - Page 2
Wearing hanfu. The half-shouldered style resembles what would've been worn for ease of archery and the like during the Tang Dynasty
There’s some common threads I see in the anti-voting posts going around, and I feel like I need to discuss some of them. Let’s start with the biggest one:
Voting to punish evil. I see lots of variations of this. Biden is supporting Israel, therefore we can’t vote for him. Is there any viable candidate who would stop the genocide? I don’t think the anti voting crowd actually cares. They are appealing to moral feelings rather than political strategy, because strategically, you have to realize that voting is not going to change foreign policy, and that change has to be pushed by other means. It’ll probably be something in the long haul.
Democrats should run someone else. First of all, this is a shit strategy. You don’t primary your president in the second term unless your party is falling apart. This may come from people from countries where replacing the head of government is easier, but the POTUS is the de facto party head. Also, going to the lack of thought to the goal — do you know someone willing to primary Biden and able to win who would do the things you want.
Biden hasn’t done anything anyway. This is just a way to bat away pro arguments. There’s plenty of lists of progress on lots of things. Student loans, insulin price caps, regulations, anti-trust.
Putting the entire Palestinian genocide on Biden. I’m not saying there’s not culpability there, but understand that the entire US government is in support of Israel, on both sides. It was a miracle we got a handful of Senators to call for investigations. We should cut off aid, absolutely. Who’s running to do that? And keep in mind that Israel chose to engage. US officials would have liked a more limited response, not out of care for Palestinians, but because they know from experience that it will come back to bite Israel in the form of newly radicalized Hamas recruits.
Liberals just have no hope for change. This is a new one. Just some idea that people are stuck in a rut and that’s the reason the two party system exists. The two party system is a mathematical consequence of the way we vote. There is reason to hope for change. The change, though, whatever means you choose, will take decades. Keep working at it. The hope is not that this election will fundamentally change things. The hope is that many small political actions over the years will push things forward.
Funnily enough, I haven’t seen a whole lot of third party promotion, just lots of this rhetoric aiming to punish. When voting, ask yourself:
Is this problem I have with this candidate something that the other candidate would be better on?
Are there other political actions I can take that will help?
What things can change with a different President or Congress, and what needs to be pursued by other means?
Withholding your vote as a punishment isn’t really going to help. Biden doesn’t know who you are or why you are not voting for him, and there is no one with a chance of winning that will do everything you want. But you have other means. Protest, organize, donate, build up alternatives, advocate for a different system.
Vote to give yourself space and get a little bit. Do other things to keep things moving.
Let us be very clear: Hamas breached international law on the 7th of October. Hamas targeted innocent civilians in the most callous and inhumane manner, and their actions have been rightly condemned by right thinking people across the world.
But we should also be very clear, Israel has breached international law, not just every day since October the 7th, but virtually every single day for decades.
Israel occupies Palestinian land, against international law.
Israel blockades Palestinian territory, against international law.
Israel builds and expands illegal settlements, against international law.
Israel enforces an apartheid system that restricts the movements of Palestinians and denies their fundamental rights, against international law.
And Israel regularly and systematically attacks and kills Palestinian civilians, against international law.
So the question that must be answered by all of us in political life is this: How does the world respond to flagrant abuses of international law when it comes to the horrendous war crimes of Hamas? The response was very clear and very consistent. World leaders queued up to say Israel has the right to defend itself. One after another repeated their words the great and the good, including our government.
“Israel has the right to defend itself.”
Repeated in statement after statement, tweet after tweet, despite the full knowledge that those words have become contaminated. The words, “Israel has the right to defend itself” means in practice that Israel takes that right as license to bombard civilians, to bomb schools, hospitals and other civilian infrastructure. And it has now been taken as license to enforce the displacement of 1 million people from one end of an open air prison to another. To deny food, energy, medical supplies to a besieged civilian population, to actually deny them water, to ensure that children, the sick, the disabled, the elderly will literally die of thirst.
“Israel has the right to defend itself” has now become cover for, “Israel has the right to commit genocide.”
Right in front of our eyes. How come we never hear the words, “Palestine has the right to defend itself”?
Not when a humanitarian flotilla bringing essential supplies to Gaza is met with a military assault and the murder by Israel of nine unarmed activists.
Not when Palestinians march in peaceful protests against illegal blockade and are met again with a military assault and the murder of 300 of them.
Not after the countless bombings of Gaza by Israeli forces.
Not even when Israel targeted and murdered four little Palestinian boys playing football on a beach.
And not when Palestinians were dragged from their homes and forced to watch as those homes were destroyed to allow for new illegal Israeli settlements on lands that are clearly defined in international law as part of Palestine.
And not after the countless offensive attacks by Israel against the people of Gaza or the West Bank, have we or any heard anybody in this house or any Western leader uttered the words, “Palestine has the right to defend itself.”
And why not?
And by the way, I'm not asking you to say those words. And in fact, it's just as well you don't. Because we all know that the people of Palestine can't defend themselves, not against one of the most powerful military forces in the world that is backed up by even more powerful military forces.
The truth is that the people of Palestine, just like the innocent people of Israel, don't need the international community to tell them that their leaders have the right to inflict more bombings, more pain, more suffering. They need the international community to say, “Stop.” To release the hostages, to say stop the bombings, the siege, the slaughter. They need the international community to tell Israel to stop the blockade, stop the apartheid, stop the annexations, to stop the genocide.
And they need countries tarnished to lead the way. And Ireland should be one of those countries that leads the way.
We know colonialism.
We know oppression.
We know conflict.
But we also know conflict resolution.
We know peace building.
We know nation building.
And because of what we know, what our history has taught us, our call tonight must be clear, immediate, full and unequivocal ceasefire fires and a decisive international intervention that leads to negotiations and to a lasting and just peace settlement and to, at long last, to a free, sovereign and independent Palestine.🇵🇸
Oh yeah, I’ve seen those takes too, and I’ve also never really got where there coming from either? Like you said, Dick’s experience would be different from Jason’s absolutely, but the idea that the Grayson’s would’ve had or would’ve left Dick a ton of money is so weird to me? Like, even in modern times (which Dick’s backstory is not originating from - comic books are weird) most performers are not paid amazingly well. Like, being a well known trapeze act is not the same as being a famous singer, those are in completely different stratospheres, which I feel like sometimes gets missed in the whole “the Graysons were the best at what they did” thing? Like they can be that and also poor because literally no one makes money in circus except for like, John Ringling, 100 years ago.
[full disclaimer: I do/did (hopefully will again, although I’m in the US so probably not anytime soon 😓) perform/teach flying trapeze/silks/lyra, but I’ve never been part of a traveling show so my knowledge about those comes second-hand from family friends/people I’ve worked with]
Definitely agree with you about Dick being a polyglot, which is actually canon (pre-New52/Rebirth at least - I don’t really read the post-flashpoint stuff). Dick brings up in one of the Nightwing comics that he spoke other languages (French, I think) before Bruce took him in.
With the homeschooling, this might be one of the more modern updates, but I know a lot of travelling circuses now have schoolteachers who travel with them (at least, I know a couple of the major American ones did - your profile said Dutch so I’m assuming you’re experience is with European circuses, though I could be wrong).
That’s another nuance that I feel like gets missed, is the difference between European circus culture and American circus culture? Which obviously have similarities and crossover and exchanges, but are still kinda distinct things? And like, not even (or not just) in the fan stuff, but in the comics themselves. Like sometimes they’re on point and sometimes they are just soooo far off it’s laughable, and then fans pick up on that and perpetuate it.
Like one of the things I was thinking about recently because it crossed my dash was Devin Grayson claiming she “researched circus” and that was how she decided to make Dick Romani. And like, I’m not Romani, so I’m not going to weigh in on if people think that’s bad or good representation, since people who are Romani have done that on both sides, and they have more right to have a say in it than I ever will, but.
I don’t for one second believe she did any research. I don’t know enough to say about the presence of Romani people in European circus, or in American circus for that matter, but if I was a writer and I wanted to take a character with Dick Grayson’s back story and make them an ethnicity that was not white, I don’t see how with even 5 minutes of research you would miss the incredibly obvious answer of Mexican. There are so many famous flying trapeze families in North America that are Mexican, including Miguel Vasquez and the Vasquez family, aka the first person to throw a quad somersault (that trick Dick was famous for) in real life. And like, I would hesitate to do it now with Dick because I feel like that would play into the idea that representation is interchangeable, which it is definitely not, but if I was going to create a character with Dick’s backstory it feels like, given the prominence of Mexican and Mexican-American trapeze artists in defining and developing trapeze in the US, that would be the natural choice. (And, to be extra super clear about this, I’m not in any way suggesting Dick can’t be Romani. This is solely a comment on Devin Grayson’s terrible research and stereotypes when she decided to add that in. And also I’m annoyed that the Nightwing comic decided to reference the Gaonas but have Alex Gaona (or the madeup character who shares that name) be blond? Like, why?)
Anyway, your original post was super interesting, sorry for rambling on forever. I was just excited to talk circus and comics and circus in comics, and it’s way more fun talking to people than shouting into the void. I’ll stop now.
People in this fandom have no fucking clue about circus life and the culture surrounding it. And it shows
I’m kinda curious what this is referring to, because I haven’t seen any Really Bad Circus Takes recently (which obviously doesn’t mean they don’t exist, just that I haven’t seen them on my dashboard) and I’m just super nosy.
(totally understand if you don’t want to reblog the specific post or anything though. like i said, just curious!)
People in this fandom have no fucking clue about circus life and the culture surrounding it. And it shows
I mean...apparently the Gaonas exist in the DCU, so you wouldn’t be the first person to reference real life people in relation to dick grayson’s circus background
I have so many stupidly niche headcanons that I usually don’t even notice myself having.
Like, okay, so Flash villain The Trickster and Dick Grayson both come from aerialist families, right? And it’s a pretty small community. (I think Trickster might have gotten a different background in the last reboot but I super don’t care.)
Anyway I headcanon they both know Nik Wallenda due to circus community ties and turn up sometimes when he does stunts like crossing Niagara Falls on the high wire, to show moral support.
If Dick notices James he pretends not to. They’re not on the super-clock.
i think what turns me off, really, to a lot of late preboot stories is that they’re just so damn cynical about everything - i don’t love superheroes because i’m infatuated with the idea that Everything Sucks And Everyone Is An Asshole To Each Other All The Time, i love superheroes because i want to believe the world can be fixed. i love cape comics because they elevate characters who have idealistic worldviews above those that don’t, i love cape comics because it’s a world where idealism is never a lost cause.
i’ve talked about this issue before, but there’s a reason my favorite batman story of all time is detective comics #500’s, “to kill a legend.” in it, phantom stranger offers batman the chance to go save his parents’ lives in another dimension, and batman accepts. as batman and robin investigate the world they’re in, they discover that this earth has no heroes, not even fictional ones. they’re in a world that can’t even conceive the idea of a hero, much less actually harbor them. so robin makes the argument that maybe they shouldn’t save batman’s parents, because this is the only shot the world has at having a hero - and doesn’t the good batman will do outweigh the price of just two lives?
it’s the sort of moral dilemma that we see fairly often today, but ‘tec #500 shoots it down ruthlessly. batman, of course, saves his parents, and the waynes of that dimension remain a whole and happy family. you’d think that batman had just selfishly saved his own parents and cost the world its last chance at a hero. but bruce wayne becomes batman anyway, because 'tec’s argument is that it is never a bad thing to save someone’s life. the lives batman saves will go on to save other lives. the great ouroboros of comic books isn’t infinite sadness or infinite dickery, it’s infinite potential to do good. batman raises robin who becomes nightwing who will become batman who will redeem another robin, and morrison’s run told us that batman and robin will never die, which means they never fail; their belief in doing good never once fails them. the lives they saved always turned to save more lives. to quote batman #700, “no matter when. no matter where. no matter how dark.”
i love cape comics because the very concept of them rewards hoping against all hope. superheroes by nature reward the idea of genuine belief; believing enough in a cause that you will splash it across your chest and put yourself on the line to make it happen. and in a world where everyone is competing to see who can give less of a fuck, it’s a very powerful thing to read about being praised for believing in “naive” or “childish” ideals like hope and truth and justice. i’m not here to read about how everyone really hates each other and everyone is the worst and everyone dies and everything is bad forever and ever. i’m just not.
Another fun part of the Nightwing One Year Later comics, when Dick is searching for a job:
-”Ric” isn’t the first time Dick tried being a taxi driver
-Dick actively decided he didn’t want to join the NYPD when he was searching for jobs
-when he first goes to Bones gym where he ends up teaching trapeze, this happens:
(Nightwing #126)
which was a trip for me because it’s not every day you read about someone you know in a comic. The Flying Gaonas were/are a circus family, one of the best flying trapeze families ever and someone young Dick Grayson was probably familiar with. I’ve only met one of the Gaonas, and only in passing, but it was a name that surprised me to see it pop up. I assume Alex is a made up character, but I wasn’t expecting the reference! Incidentally, this book as an accurate explanation of how to do a proper swing on the trapeze, so someone writing this knew what they were doing. Between this and Dick working at a real-life museum a few issues later, this arc feelings much more grounded in the real world than other ones have.
So I’ve been reading the Nightwing One Year Later comics, starting with Nightwing: Brothers in Blood, which was weird but not as bad as I was expecting from what I’d seen of people talking about it. I really liked Roy showing up in the last issue to basically bail Dick out and then the two of them proceeding to banter for the rest of the issue, which was just a lot of fun. I also really liked Dick and Cheyenne’s relationship -- or, not liked the relationship, but liked the writing of it, in the sense of “these people are not going to work out due to circumstance and personality and just not meshing but at least one of them wants to keep trying but it’s also still casual” complicated messiness of it. it was a nice change of pace to read a relationship where this was not “the one” and the people in the relationship knew that - i mean, three comics later when dick thinks back on his past relationships, cheyenne isn’t even included.
i also thought dick and jason’s relationship was really interesting. and, related, loved seeing clancy again. the comics never really expanded on dick and jason’s relationship after their first meeting but before jason died, although there are hints of it. but jason seemed really invested in being brothers with dick, and even if dick seems callous at times (which arguably, fair - all jason’s done since he’s been back is try to kill him and his family) he’s still absolutely determined to rescue jason when he gets captured. also interesting that jason calls dick “dickebird” and “dickie” - i think the only other people i’ve seen call him that are john and mary grayson, and i feel like that parallel would make an interesting/emotional story
I. This is Not a Game
II. Here and Now, You Are Alive
-Small Gods by Terry Pratchett
Words of wisdom from the Great God Om on this Glorious 25th of May
this was my ask! :D :D :D your post about potential metas (and also your lovely dick grayson timeline) was one of the things that inspired me to dig up my old tumblr and finally start using it (the other being my need to rant about dick grayson and circus). i don’t really have anything to add other than i miss this dynamic and i have definitely been ignoring the modern stuff and reading 90s comics. and just ugh! siblings! family!
the dick and tim meta was not long (ok, it was but it was great) and you should definitely talk about their relationship! (if you feel like it) (i just want dc to let them be brothers again i miss it) (this is the void again btw, that's who i am now i guess 😂)
GOD i got this lovely ask way too long ago to have not responded yet, but I was trying to sort out if I had a well thought out meta for you. I don’t. I just wanna give a very unordered ramble.
Dick and Tim were really the first close sibling bond either of them had. Dick of course had Jason as a brother first, but at the time Jason was Robin, Dick was off being a predominantly Titans character in New York, and not vibing with Bruce, so even though they got along they weren’t close.
But Dick and Tim!! True sibs. The best boys.
Here is Dick calling Tim his little brother long before they’d become actual adoptive siblings [Secret Origins 80-Page Giant]. I love one (1) man.
Dick had his own life going on outside of Gotham, but he still became Tim’s mentor almost as much as Bruce, and his confidant far more. The number of times Tim and Dick hung out and Tim got big brother advice is...so many.
[Robin #61]
And they were Batman and Robin together the first time Dick donned the cowl, where they worked together perfectly and also had a fun time doing it. Plus, Dick lived in the Manor and made Tim learn household tasks
[Robin #12]
And also!! I get emotional! About them being so connected so early on!! Tim’s introduction was all about Dick, not about Bruce. His backstory was from Dick’s, and the first person he sought out in his introductory storyline was Dick, before he met Bruce at all.
Tim got a hug from a kid at the circus when he was a tiny tim and then saw that kid’s parents die, and that set the whole course of his life. He remembered details of that for yeeeears and it’s what led him to figure out Batman’s identity.
Obvs Dick’s backstory is defined by losing his parents, and so they both come from this same event which completely changed them in different ways, and then led them back together and I :’)
Dick genuinely means so much to Tim. That’s his idol, the Robin he looked up to, the kid he attached to so thoroughly, and then his older brother and mentor and confidant and partner. And Tim is Dick’s little-brother-by-choice, the first one he mentored to be Robin, worked with as Batman, could and would beat a clown to death to protect.
And then for like 15 years Dick and Tim were this tight trio along with Bruce (Babs and Steph having their own families, Cass being as much under Babs’s mentorship as Bruce’s, Jason being dead, and Damian not existing yet) and closet not-but-basically siblings, and great, and I love them.
[Gotham Knights #8]
In conclusion, current DC should stop sleeping on them and also everyone should read comics from the 90s which was the best batfam era, the end.
I think the major reason why so many depictions of Batman rub me the wrong way is because, imo, the major character trait of Bruce shouldn’t be his anger or his darkness or his inability to move on from the death of his parents or whatever. It should be his empathy. His compassion. Those are his major flaws. No, seriously. They’re the reason why everything keeps going wrong in his life.
Because he can’t seem to delegate and prioritize? He has that sort of wide-ranging empathy that covers everyone, and it leaves no room for the people closest to him in his life. He cares, and that’s the issue, because he cares too damn much and it’s spread so thin that it goes right back to making him look cold and emotionless and detached. There’s no way he can save everyone, to be what every single person needs, but he tries anyway. And he can’t stop doing what he does because there’s always something going on, and he doesn’t have time to take care of himself or take care of those around him because that’s selfish! Because there’s always someone who needs him, someone who needs saving, and what right does he have to slow down? What right does he have to take a breather, to take a rest from The Mission when he can be out there making a difference?
And that’s probably the reason why so many people keep flocking to him, especially those in vulnerable positions like orphaned kids, because they see it. They see his kindness, his compassion, his genuine desire to help, and they know that it’s real. They know, because Bruce takes the effort to show them. Because Bruce is great at being kind to strangers! We’ve seen it demonstrated over and over again in every piece of media he appears in. He’s great at winning people over, great at getting them on his side, but it soon becomes apparent that they’re not his priority? And it’s okay when they don’t really know each other, but then he becomes a friend, a father, and he still doesn’t make time in his day for them. Still doesn’t hold them in higher standing than the rest of the world, because he can’t prioritize the people he likes. What right does he have to choose?
I just… I can’t see Bruce as being inherently selfish. I can’t see him being cold and unemotional when he wakes up every day (or night) and keeps fighting for a city that doesn’t seem to want to get better. That doesn’t scream logic to me? That screams of someone who feels deeply and intensely, who values hope against all else. Even if he’s pragmatic and pessimistic and a bit (a lot) of a mood-killer, there has to be faith holding him up.
And yk… emotional doesn’t mean he’s good at showing them. Doesn’t mean he knows how to show them. Bruce seems to have that neurodivergent and/or PTSD thing where the stronger, more intense his feelings are, the harder it is for him to actually show them. Maybe because he’s scared, or maybe they just paralyze him, whatever. So you’ve got this odd dichotomy where he can comfort strangers, he can make little kids smile both in and out of costume, but the closer you get to him the more he seems to withdraw from you. Because he feels too much. Because the words get jumbled in his head, and they don’t come out right, or heck, they just sort of… stop, somewhere, or maybe they just don’t even form. We’ve got so many examples of him saying the right thing to strangers, to acquaintances he only knows the name and face of, and so many examples of him phenomenally fucking up when it comes to his kids or anyone that he loves.
Also another thing that I cut out of my post about Dick and flying trapeze, but am posting here: height. Because I’ve seen a lot of talk about Dick’s height on tumblr recently. You can headcanon Dick at whatever height you want. Go nuts, have fun. But. First off – trapeze and aerials and acrobatics are all different things, and they are all different from artistic gymnastics. The “ideal” body for a gymnast is not the same as the “ideal” body for an aerialist or a trapeze artist. While there is crossover, they are not the same. (Example: I can throw a full twisting layout off a trapeze. If I’m on the ground, I can usually manage a cartwheel.) Dick in comics is obviously good at gymnastics as well. In the comics, on trapeze, Dick has been both a flyer and a catcher. I have a friend who’s 5’1, which would actually be on the tall side for elite women’s gymnastics. She is an amazing flyer. There are tricks on flying trapeze she is too short to throw. Not a lot of them, but there are some. In my experience, guys who are both great flyers and great catchers tend to be 5’10-6’0, 175-180 lbs. This isn’t a scientific study, this is just personal experience, and you can have Dick be whatever height you want in your story or headcanon or whatever, those are yours, but in canon I’d say this is something DC actually got right for once. And there’s no reason Dick can’t be 5’10 or even 6’0 and still be a great flyer. Being tiny is not a requirement for being a good flyer, those things aren’t mutually exclusive.
Dick Grayson and Trapeze
Okay, so I’ve been getting into DC for the past year or so after growing up entirely on Marvel and even more now that I can’t do anything else, and I love Dick Grayson! Because he is awesome, and also a circus person, and I am also a circus person. I’ve done circus for years, I worked at a circus school, it is a huge part of my life, circus is great! But oh my god almost all of the details are inaccurate and it’s finally gotten to me enough that I had to find and dust off my tumblr so I could post a rant about it. Will anyone care? Who knows! But I feel better now.
1. flying trapeze is not a solo act. Flying trapeze is not even a two-person act. Flying trapeze is at minimum a three-person act. You need a catcher, a flyer, and someone on board. Most historical flying trapeze family acts were four people (often siblings, or siblings and spouses) although of course that number varied I’ve included a picture of a rig below that I labeled so you can see what i’m referring to when I say flyer, board, catcher.
-this is why I am all for the young justice canon where it was dick’s father and uncle and their wives, and then once they grew up dick and his cousin. Siblings and spouses is an absolutely classic makeup of a trapeze family. Alternatively, you could imagine that john and mary worked with other trapeze artists they weren’t related to.
-dick is not old enough to be the third person here. He’s old enough to fly – my school had a minimum age of six for people taking classes, but staff children were exempt from that. Part of the reason for the age was the kids needed to listen, and part was they needed to not freak out. Obviously this doesn’t apply to Dick. But one of the other things is height. With smaller kids (on our rig, anyone under 4’6 I’d say, although you can adjust rigs to the height of flyers to a certain extent) you could not hold onto the bar and keep your feet on the platform. It was too far away. Small kids would grab the bar and their feet would dangle in the air and I’d hold them back by their safety belt. There are a couple of ways around this, including rises, but point being, could dick fly and throw tricks? Sure. Could he work board or drop a return bar? No way.
-there is a type of trapeze called swinging trapeze that is a solo act and uses a similar rig setup to flying trapeze, but you don’t leave the trapeze
-there is also a flying trapeze style called bar-to-bar, which is when instead of flying to a catcher you would catch the bar yourself, and is actually what jules leotard did when he first invented trapeze, but it is very rare (like, the only time I’ve ever seen this is catchers returning to the board) and you’d still need someone to drop the second bar for you. Here is a video of a catcher returning to the board. If you’re doing bar-to-bar instead of having a catcher, then you’d have a different rig set up than with a catcher, with a platform on either end of the net. If you want to compare them, here’s a really cool company that uses a cross setup which has both a bar-to-bar rig and a bar-to-catcher rig incorporated. In Nightwing: Year One, the Flying Graysons are shown using the more traditional bar-to-catcher set up, but Deadman (and presumably Dick when he joins the act) seems to be doing bar-to-bar.
2. you cannot “work your way up” to flying trapeze. There is no mini trapeze, there’s no slow version, there’s no flying trapeze but low to the ground (there are different types of rigs and cross training and if anyone wants me to go into detail I will, but still). “Working your way up to it” in flying trapeze means starting in safety lines and then taking a trick out of safety lines (step three, for the graysons, would be doing it without a net). Even in lines, you have to jump off the platform 20 feet in the air. That is step one, and you just have to dive right in. Feel free to come yell at me about how this influenced Dick as he grew up because I can’t put it into words right now but there’s something in there about Dick’s ratio of planning-to-look before leaping.
3. One of the most common mistakes new flyers make is trying to grab the catcher. This is a no-no. Flyer’s job is to fly, catchers job is to catch. As a flyer, your job is to be there, arms out, hands flat, and easy to grab. The catcher is responsible for grabbing you. If you make grabby hands or try to grab onto them in return before they’ve caught you, you will miss. It’s a disconcerting feeling if you’re starting out – when you’re following through the air, you want to grab at the person reaching for you. You cannot. You have to trust them to grab you.
-think of this, Dick, who has been raised with this mindset, watching his parents fall. Thing of this, Dick, who has decided it’s his job to catch everyone. Think of this, Dick, falling and hoping someone catches him. Think of the angst. Think of the fluff! The possibilities are endless! (please someone right this and also feel free to ask me questions about this I have feelings)
4. Look, all flying trapeze is built on timing and trust okay!! I remember my hair getting loose and in my eyes halfway through a trick and it’s weird because you’re flying through the air and you can’t see anything and you really would like to be able to see things but it doesn’t actually matter. It didn’t change what I had to do, which was listen to my catcher and let go when they said. I didn’t need to see them, I just needed to trust them and listen. It was a perfectly fine catch! Just, ugh, it’s all about trust!!!!!!
5. While wearing a leotard with bare legs is definitely ridiculous if you’re planning on running around fighting crime, it makes total sense if you’re a flyer and you’re doing any sort of legs catch. (Not if you’re a catcher. Wearing a leotard with no pants is just asking for pain if you’re a catcher. Lots of catchers wear two pairs of leggings so they have extra padding.) Look, one of my friends tried to do a legs catch in full lengths leggings and even though she could connect she slipped out of the catcher’s hands every single time. Every single god damn time. Her form could be absolutely perfect but as long as she was wearing those pants that catch was not going to happen. Bare legs all the way for legs catches. (If you’re not doing leg catches, go nuts. If you’re a beginner, you definitely want the back of your knees covered because you’ll have your knees on the bar a lot. I’ve definitely flown in shorts before, but I also spend a disproportionate amount of time in knee hangs. If you’re not used to doing if, hanging from your knees when it’s just bare skin *hurts*, and having them covered helps). The Flying Graysons poster at the top shows Dick doing what is actually probably a double angel return, not a legs catch, but I don’t think it’s a stretch to say the Graysons had that trick in their show. (I realize that the video I linked shows a legs catch with long pants, so this is obviously a flexible rule, and depends on the material as well. Basically, whatever you want the costume to be, go nuts!)
If anyone has questions or thoughts, feel free to shoot me an ask. Also, if you’re curious about flying trapeze, circus is more accessible than most people think. Lots of places have circus schools where you can go and take a class, no experience required! (not now, obviously, because we’re in the middle of a pandemic, but in the future). I’m happy to answer questions about that as well.
you know what i don’t see enough of? circus kid dick grayson critiquing the joker because he’s a bad clown. not like, bad, and also a clown. but bad at being a clown. i want to see dick grayson taking the existence of this horrible clown very personally as a matter of professional pride. he has known clowns, and you, sir, are no clown. the joker is an insult to the legacy of emmett kelly and this shall not stand.
So I was inspired by @kiragecko to create a floor plan of Wayne Manor. I started out trying to be accurate to the comics, but eventually gave up because it changed so many times that was impossible. This is more like the manor shown in recent comics, specifically from when Dick and Damian were Batman and Robin, but I also pulled references from a bunch of different comics and from different timelines and the Gotham tv show. At this point this is the floor plan for the mashed up canon that exists in my head. Aside from @kiragecko’s own floor plan, other references included Biltmore, Filoli, Casa Loma, The Breakers, Rosecliff, Marble House, and Darlington/Crocker Mansion. I tried to make it mostly to scale, although I hand drew this and then cleaned it up digitally, so it’s probably a little off in some places. Blue text is what the current Wayne/Batfamily use the rooms for, green is what the historical use was, and black is what they’d likely be listed as on a real estate listing. Green doors are hidden or jib doors, basically doors that aren’t obvious but don’t require a pass code to get through or lead to the Batcave. Purple “doors” are the secret passages like the one hidden behind the grandfather clock that even an observant bystander shouldn’t be able to find and involve much more security. More explanations under the cut.
So the comics are unclear on how the Waynes got Wayne Manor. They say that Nathan van Derm designed it for Darius Wayne, but then also that Darius’s grandsons, Solomon and Joshua, purchased it after Jerome van Derm died. At some point after Joshua died (in 1860), the manor was abandoned and Solomon’s son Alan (Bruce’s great-great-grandfather) rebuilt it.
In my head, the east and west wings of the W would have been later editions. The first version of the manor, up to at least when Alan Wayne rebuilt it, would have probably just been the central portion, out to the 2 towers. Original kitchen would have been in the basement, as well as additional servants quarters. It’s not shown on the plans, but in this version the basement has been renovated to include a gym, movie room, and game area (leaving aside the much cooler basement underneath.) Also not pictured is the third floor/attic, which includes servants quarters and a third floor sitting room above Thomas Wayne’s den that looks out over the front lawn.
With the east and west wings, you can see the very clear divisions in purpose. The west wing was a guest wing, probably added when serious entertaining became a thing, with a dedicated ballroom and guest bedrooms. The east wing downstairs was the servants’ wing - kitchen, staff dining room, butler’s pantry, bedrooms for upper household staff. East wing upstairs was the children’s/nursery wing.
In the center of the house you can see a male/female divide that went with the historical idea of some rooms (billiard room/smoking room/study/library) being “men’s spaces” and some (drawing room/morning room) being “women’s spaces. The bedrooms for the permanent residents of the manor in the 1860s (Solomon and his wife, Joshua, Celestine) follow this divide as well, though unlike other “great houses” Wayne manor didn’t go so far as to have a separate bachelor’s wing.
Regarding the jib doors vs secret passageways - secret passageways are basically entrances to the batcave, although they would’ve also been used by Solomon and Joshua as part of the underground railroad. Off the servery you can see the entrance to the wine cellar where Joshua’s body was eventually found. The jib doors (in green) would have been used by servants or family members to pass between rooms without going into the main hallways. Great for sneaking up on people!
Ok, going into some more specifics - headcanon time! Basically everything beyond this is just in my head, and the Batfam stuff is set at some point in the future. (It’s a really shame they stopped writing Batman Comics right after Bruce came back from they dead. Ric? Ric who? don’t know what you’re talking about).
First, Celestine Wayne. Celestine Wayne is not a comic character. She was loosely inspired by the history of the Waynes from Gotham the tv show, and by loosely I mean her name and the fact that she lived during the Civil War era. There is a C.L. Wayne from that time period who founded the Gotham Botanical Garden in the comics, and in my head they are definitely the same person. In the Wayne family tree in my head her father was Caleb Wayne, and she was Solomon and Joshua’s cousin who became their ward for.......reasons undecided yet. Her father was leading wagon trains and so never home. Something else happened. You pick! She never married (imagine whatever reason you want here, I tend to stay away from the tv show explanation and go with she just wasn’t interested, but any reason works) and so when she became an adult and was still living at the manor but not the “lady of the house” the floor plan was slightly modified to give her her own suite of rooms. Joshua Wayne has something similar in the sense of having his own private study next to his room, although his were only connected by secret passage. Sometime between Dick moving out and Tim moving in permanently, Dick moved from his childhood room into these rooms (leaving Tim free to move into his old bedroom, a thing that actually happened in the comics). Maybe this happened when he was adopted? Maybe when he and Bruce kinda reconciled after Bruce got his back broken? Who knows! There was definitely a period where to Dick the Manor was Not His Home Anymore, and so in his mind he probably didn’t have a permanent room there (and tried to avoid staying there). Think of the moving to the “grown up full suite” as a really old fashioned way of Bruce or Alfred or both saying “I recognize you’re an adult with your own life and autonomy and I cannot treat you like a child, but also this is your home and you will always have a permanent place here.”
Other rooms of note - most mansions I referenced did not have a dedicated armoury, but it’s Batman! Of course there’s an armoury. For historical artifacts, a lot of these weapons sure seem functional......
The tea room was not originally a tea room but somewhere along the way at least one of the Wayne matriarchs was very fond of afternoon tea. With Alfred in the manor it is definitely a Space for Afternoon Tea, although it also gets used for other meals occasionally and Alfred will do a lot of his meal planning/any other paperwork there, even though he technically has an office.
When Thomas and Martha were alive, there were actually full time staff living at the manor beyond Alfred and the staff quarters got used, and the “servant’s hall” actually got used as a staff dining room, but now this is where the family members tend to gather if there’s too many of them to just eat in the kitchen. (In my head, Wayne Manor during Thomas and Martha’s life is basically the Wayne Manor described by @unpretty who has written some of my favorite Batman fics ever.)
When Bruce was growing up, Thomas Wayne’s den was the “casual family living room” that every other sitting room in the manor was not, and after he died Bruce couldn’t bear to touch anything in it and avoided it unless he was doing some hardcore brooding. When he moved back/took in Dick, he converted one of the bedrooms to a tv room because he wanted a space that was casual and none of the other spaces felt like a tv belonged in them, but he still couldn’t go in his father’s den. As things have gotten better, and also as Tim and Damian’s relationship improved and Tim started coming around more, Bruce was finally ready to let this go and this became basically Tim’s workspace for whenever he’s at the manor. Bruce will work on stuff in there if Tim is in there, but he still doesn’t spend a lot of time in there on his own. (Ok, this was a little bit inspired by a Rebirth comic, don’t know which one, not gonna find it, I’m sure the rest of it was silly). Bruce tends to use the study downstairs if he’s working on W.E. work or other stuff like that. Jason and Dick’s go to places for any type of homework (when they were living at the manor) or any other work they might have to sit down and do are one of the libraries or wherever Bruce or Alfred are, depending on their mood and what they’re working on, and how long they’ve been living at the manor.
I’m pretty sure Martha Wayne painting/drawing is canon, but I don’t remember the comic it was referenced in. Anyway, she turned what was being used as a sunroom into her art studio because it had the best light. With Damian in the manor it’s slowly being reclaimed by art supplies.
There are definitely rolling mirrors and freestanding barres in the ballroom that Cass uses for dance practice.
Not pictured: the massive garage, stables, tennis courts, basketball courts, gardens, pond, and basically everything on the grounds.
If anyone is curious about what comic panels I referenced (or ignored), or what real world rooms/houses inspired specific parts, shoot me a message! Also, feel free to use this in art/fics/whatever if you want a reference!
hi, it’s the void! i’m back. okay, regarding any metas you feel like writing. i wasn’t kidding when i said they all sounded great. i loved the timeline you did for Dick, especially because i haven’t been reading DC that long and it was great to understand how events happened and stuff, and more timelines like that would be amazing, , but i’m actually mad curious about your thoughts on how Dick and Tim are similar? like i've seen a lot about their relationship as brothers which is great but (1/2)
but now that you’ve said it, it kinda makes sense. although the only specific thing i can remember is them both insisting on going to public school. anyway, i'd love to hear your thoughts! (2/2)
I very probably will end up doing more timelines because I had fun! but unless there’s a specific request I might wait until I’m fully done with my pre-flashpoint read through. Onward to your actual question, though!!
tl;dr: Dick and Tim are both true heroes on the side of good, very smart, social and well-liked, team players, highly prone to (often unnecessary) guilt, susceptible to becoming more Batman-like in their worst moments, and able to fight against that with The Power of Friendship (i.e. trusting and relying on others).
but lets start with the reason why Tim and Dick ended up so similar in-universe, which is that out-of-universe they’re the most similar.
They’re the archetypical, “light to Batman’s darkness” type Robins.
[Dick to Alfred, in flashback: “No, it’s not like that, Alfred. I mean, I know the danger, and I really try to careful. But I also know I’m doing good, that I’m helping people. I think in a way I’m helping Bruce, too.” “How is that, sir?” “I used to think he was more real as Batman than as Bruce Wayne...but because he just can’t be some cold super-hero around me, I think Bruce is becoming more real, too. Look I know what we’re doing is important, but it’s not everything. Mom and Dad always taught me to enjoy myself. I think maybe I’m helping Bruce to sometimes enjoy himself, too.” | (Batman #438)]
(p.s. go read batman year 3, ft grieving bruce, bruce & dick & alfred Feelings, young dick grayson flashbacks, and the cameo first appearance of baby tim)
[Tim, to Bruce: “B-Batman, it’s hard for me to say this to you--but since Jason...died, everyone’s notice how you’ve...changed.” / “You need someone to make you slow down just a bit and wonder what could happen. I mean, how many times have you been hurt these past few months?” | (Batman #442)]
They’re the two who had truly long runs as Robin: post-Crisis Jason had about a year and a half, Stephanie a few months. If you include all reboots, Damian has had a decade, but I ignore everything after Flashpoint since the characterizations changed so wildly, and he only had 2 years preboot. Meanwhile, Dick was Robin for over 40 years, and Tim for 20.
They were really the only two preboot that had time to live and grow in the role of Robin. They had time to become staples of the greater universe and connect with many other characters. They had time to become long-lasting members of notable teams.
They both were introduced in the sidekick role, but soon started leading stories as main characters in their own right instead of supporting characters to Batman. Tim got his own Robin series, and then continued into his Red Robin series. Dick was the regular star of stories within batfamily anthology series—though I’m not familiar enough with the golden/silver/bronze ages to cite those off-hand, sorry—and then in the modern age got a Nightwing ongoing until he took over as Batman.
(By contrast, Jason and Damian have only really lifted to starring roles post-Flashpoint, previously having always shared billing as Robin. Post-resurrection, Jason was a sporadic guest character, usually an antagonist. Steph started as an occasional Batman guest star, then become a supporting character to Tim in Robin, and only much later became a main character once she got Batgirl. Cass did get her own Batgirl book right off the bat, but, look, out of universe and narratively Cass is so very different to the boys, and was still always very isolated from the rest of the dcu. Barbara as Oracle is the only one who had the same central status as Dick and Tim, but being neither Bruce’s kid nor a Robin, she has a completely different, far more independent role.)
tl;dr: If you read preboot comics, there really is a distinct way in which Dick and Tim are treated as fundamental main characters in the universe in comparison to all the other batkids.
i can’t believe how long this is already getting so I’ll see you under the cut
[Alfred, to Bruce: “Oh, he was sad, certainly--But also more than that. He’s changed considerably over these past horrible days. When he first came to us, I dared entertain hopes that you might, through proximity, become more like him. Bright and more optimistic. But I’m afraid exactly the opposite has occurred. I’m afraid he’s become more like you.” | (Robin #132)]
(alfred is talking about tim here, but, spoiler, imma argue that this could literally apply just as well to either dick or tim)
Those out-of-universe similarities all come together to mean Dick and Tim had to fill pretty similar roles. Dick was created in a very lighthearted era to appeal to kids and give Batman someone to talk to, and Tim was created very specifically and carefully to Not Be Jason Todd and convince readers that a kid sidekick was still reasonable even after one of them had been killed—but the outcome is the same.
They’re the good kids. The reliable ones. Sure, they sometimes fight with Batman or make the wrong choice or struggle, but those are problems they overcome instead of defining characteristics. They were the ones who could be solidly in the role of the Robin without making readers question if they really should be Robin.
As young characters who led their own stories, writers naturally leaned into making them relatable to kids*. And when they graduated, all that established characterization kept them as The Good Kids into their future identities, even as they matured.
(*I think this is super key in comparison to Damian, who is ofc a very young kid, but who pre-Flashpoint had most of his appearances in series that weren’t necessarily geared towards kids: Batman, Batman & Robin, etc. Ergo he could be violent and bloody and chop off heads, and not have to take have any kid- relatable traits or stories. Compare to Super Sons, which I haven’t read, but from what I understand is very geared towards kids and therefore tries to make Damian more kid-friendly and kid-relatable to match.)
Dick and Tim have pretty much the same skillset all non-meta, Gotham-based vigilantes have. They’re great martial artists, they flips off buildings, they’re very smart and great detectives, etc etc. Fanon tends to exaggerate any difference in skill, but honestly by the time Tim is full-grown there’s not any hugely noted gap between them. Dick is more acrobatic, but they’re both excellent fighters. Tim’s detective skill are more likely to be mentioned, but they both are great problem- and case-solvers—and Dick has solved cold cases while sick at home, or ruined mystery movies with friends by figuring it out two minutes in, etc.
[just for kicks, here’s a horribly cropped side-by-side of Ra’s calling each of them “detective” | (Red Robin #12 / Nightwing #152)]
They’re both also very empathetic and caring. This seems pretty well known for Dick, but sometimes missed for Tim, so I’ll remind here that Tim became Robin exclusively because he wanted to help Bruce and help Gotham. He’s the only bat who became a vigilante without having any preexisting personal tragedy to motivate him, because he just wanted to help that much.
Also well known for Dick but often forgotten for Tim: they’re both social, friendly, well-liked people. Dick, of course, has friends all over the place (though, imo, keeps his closest circle of friends pretty exclusive), and generally has no problems socially.
The same is pretty much true for Tim. He doesn’t have the connections across the superhero community Dick has (tbf Dick’s been around 50 years longer), but he is similarly very comfortable in social situations. He’s a confident kid, particularly once he’s been Robin for awhile. Tim swapped schools approximately 2437 times in the Robin series, and very quickly made friends at all of them:
[Tim, to random jocks: “Excuse me, guys?” “Who’re you?” “I’m Tim Drake. I’m new here and have only one friend so far, so I can’t afford to lose him. The trouble is that he’s madly in love with Darla here and dying to talk to her. Now, as we all know, the official-rules-of-guys dictate that you’d be fully justified in beating the snot out of anyone dumb enough to make a pass at your girl. So here’s the deal. Just this once, I’m willing to take the beating coming to him. I’m not suicidal enough to try fighting back, but I still suggest we go outside so that you’ve got all the room you need to do a proper job of it.” (pause) Random jocks: “Hey, you’re all right, Tim.” “You’re pretty cool. Funny, y’know?” “Besides, she really ain’t our girl. Darla don’t date nobody.” “Come on. You can buy us sodas while your bud takes his shot at her.” “Or a double bacon burger.” | (Robin #122)]
The confidence, lads.
Like I said, they’re the “good kids,” and that applies to both sides of their double lives:
As civilians, they got good grades in school (not that that separates them from the other batkids), they generally followed the most important rules, and were relatively well-behaved kids—if not sometimes considered boring. (It’s important to remember here that, as the guy who was Robin in the 40s, Dick was once the ultimate square. Even though he was Robin until he was 19, it wasn’t until he became Nightwing that he was allowed to do adult things like “be shown in bed with his girlfriend,” and it really wasn’t until the 90s that he started to shift away from being known as the conventional, straight-laced guy.)
Dick is canonically a lightweight because he barely drinks, even though he’s specifically trained to resist other drugs. Tim is regularly teased for being so very virginal. Dick and Tim are probably the people who always appoint themselves designated driver, even when they intend to drink with their friends, and there’s already an assigned DD, and they really were planning to just have fun, they swear, but listen, someone has to look out here and make sure everything is okay and be responsible and, anyway, alcohol is bad for you.
As vigilantes, they stick with the Code and they don’t kill. As far as I can tell, the no killing code has never been shown to be deeply and personally vital to them in the way it is for, e.g., Bruce and Cass. But it is important to them: something they follow stringently, try to get others to follow, and a point of horror when they (perceive themselves to) break it.
Here’s some clips after Tim got dosed with a superspeed drug and accidentally killed Lady Shiva. (“What?? Tim killed Shiva???” Yes, but don’t worry; it will literally never be mentioned again ever.)
[Tim’s narration: “Cleared her airway. No breathing. And no pulse. Okay, so this is weird. I’m trying to bring someone who’s killed so many back to life. So she can live to kill even more.” / “But if I can save one life. Even if it’s Shiva’s. Have to fight down the poison in my blood. I deliver pressure to Shiva’s heart too fast and--and I’ll have killed her twice.” | (Robin #52)]
And here’s Dick after accidentally killing the Joker in a rage:
[Tim, to Dick: “Nightwing?” “What… What have I done?” “Omigod… He’s dead.” “I…I killed him.” | (Joker: Last Laugh #6)]
[Barbara, over video chat: “Even Bruce would admit it. The world would be better off if the Joker were dead. So don’t let this destroy you.” Dick shuts off the connection. | (Nightwing #63)]
(Dick has another sorta-kill in Nightwing #93, where he doesn’t pull the trigger himself but steps aside to let someone else do it, and he has a guilt breakdown from that as well. Even though, again, the person killed was awful, and in that case there weren’t a lot of other options left.)
I probably don’t need to tell you that Lady Shiva and the Joker are horrible people and mass murderers, to the point where resuscitating them (Tim in the first case, Bruce in the second) is arguably the less moral action. But Dick and Tim both have the same reaction of horror at what they’ve done, and refuse to entertain how the world would probably be better off without said villains. Killing is wrong, and that is the only thing either of them allow themselves to think about.
Unlike the other pair of batboys, these two are inarguably, fundamentally heroes and not antiheroes. On the occasion where they’ve tried to be darker (e.g. Dick after that accessory-to-murder thing as “Crutches”/Renegade or Tim early in Red Robin) it pretty much always stems out of feeling awful, and only makes them more miserable and depressed. In both cases, they’re taking on the role as some kind of self-punishment.
[Conner, to Tim: “Wait a second. This is all a punishment, isn’t it?” “What are you talking about?” “Taking on the identity of Red Robin--The “failed” Robin. Isolating yourself. I know what guilt can do to you, Tim.” | (Adventure Comics vol. 2 #2)]
[Dick: “I let him get shot. A bullet was fired and I failed to throw myself in front of it.” // “I’m not undercover with the bad guys--I am the bad guys.” | (Nightwing #112)]
Both of them have a tendency to feel responsible for anything that goes wrong, and especially anyone who dies—whether it’s someone they had a hand in killing, someone they failed to save…
[Tim’s narration: “Dad thinks this is part of the punishment. For me it’s therapy. Just last week I was holding a kid my own age and watching him die. And I couldn’t stop it. Some hero I turned out to be.” | (Robin #47)]
...or just someone they love who got hurt:
[Roy, to Dick, just after Donna’s death: “Stop this. You’re upset, we’re all upset...But this isn’t the time to make decisions.” “When is the time? When we kill more of our friends?” “It wasn’t our fault.” “The hell it wasn’t.” “Dick, don’t act like I don’t care! Don’t pretend that this doesn’t kill me inside. But you can’t tell me that Donna would want--" “I can’t tell you what Donna would want. Nobody can because she’s dead, Roy! What do you want to do? Just strap on our guns and wait for the next thing? Wait for the next madman, or alien, or psychopath to come along so I can shove people I love into harm’s way?! How many should we kill before it seems like a bad idea?!” | (Titans/Young Justice: Graduation Day #3)]
(Donna is a full hero in her own right, who makes her own decisions and definitely wasn’t shoved into anything by Dick, but there’s a guilt complex for you.)
And neither of them deal well with grief. This is more pronounced with Tim, who lost a whole bunch of extremely important people in a very short time, and reacted with things like cloning attempts, Lazarus pits, and world tour wild goose chases, but it’s true for both.
[Soon after Donna’s death, Dick sits silent and alone as his answering machine speaks: “I’m not here. Leave a message after the beep.” Roy, over the phone: “Dick, it’s Roy--pick up the phone...C’mon...Please...I know you’re there...Just pick up. Dick, we need to talk...You can’t just...Please… You can’t just leave me hanging out here. I’d rather we...y’know...try to go through this together...if you’d just let me… Please man… Okay. Fine. I’m here when you’re ready.” | (Teen Titans/Outsiders Secret Files)]
[Soon after his father’s death, Tim curls up in bed as Dick speaks through his answering machine: “Tim, it’s Dick. I know you’re there… C’mon, Tim. Pick up...Pick up… Tim, pick up...Please, kiddo...Pick up… I know you can hear me, Tim…” | (Identity Crisis #7)]
(thank you for setting up this perfect parallel, comics)
So, grief and guilt, the two biggest things that push both boys to their worst. Which brings us to our next point: So You Were A Teenage Vigilante Adopted By An Emotionally Repressed Father Figure And Now You Have Terrible Coping Methods.
When they hit these rough patches and fail to dig themselves out, Dick and Tim react pretty much the same way. They self-isolate, overwork themselves trying to control and fix everything, get overly serious and grim, and fail to take care of themselves, sometimes out a misplaced sense of guilt and sometimes simply because their own wellbeing takes second place to trying to save everyone else.
Or, in other words, at their worst, both Tim and Dick emulate Bruce.
During the (short! it was pretty short!) time Dick was a cop, he overworked to the point where he was doing virtually nothing to take care of himself or hang out with friends, too busy trying to take down the BPD as a cop and save people as a vigilante. After his dad and Stephanie (seemingly) died, Tim outright dropped out of school (under the pretense of being homeschooled by his fake uncle) because he didn’t see a point in devoting his time to anything that wasn’t The Mission anymore.
And even in good times, they each have shades of those traits! They both tend to be the most grim/serious on any team (or out-of-Gotham friend group), and are prone to secrecy and occasionally to trying to control things behind the scenes—all to the point where being teased or accused of being too much like Batman is a common sentiment from their friends.
[Donna, to Dick: “How long, Nightwing--How long have you been conducting secret investigations behind our backs?” “I’m sorry, Donna. But I needed to be sure my suspicions were correct before I--" | (Titans #99)]
[Wally, to Dick: “Okay. I tried. You’re on your own. You want to play the martyr? Go ahead. But I never thought you wind up like Bruce.” “What’s that supposed to--" | (Nightwing #63)]
If I took the time, I bet I could find like a billion examples of the Titans mocking Dick for being too Batman-like, but just take these two more serious examples.
imo, contrary to popular belief, this is actually far less prevalent for Tim, but still definitely gets its moments:
[Kon, to Tim, being retrained by Cassie: “Yeah, I’ll bet! Batman give you some tips for handling us, huh?” (Cassie: “Kon! This isn't the ti--") Tim: “What...is that...supposed to mean?” Kon: “You gonna make me spell it out for you?” Tim: “It think you’re going to have to, yes.” Cassie: “Kon, please, not here, not n--" Kon: “Hey, he wanted to hear it? He’s gonna hear it. So...Do you have files? On us? Or did you think we weren’t gonna hear about it? About how Batman had files on everyone in the JLA--his friends, his teammates--on all their weakness and how to beat them in case one of ‘em went rogue. Well? You’re his protege. You take the lead from him in everything. Have you figured out ways to take down each of us? Are you as paranoid as he is?” | (Young Justice #36)]
(man, remember that time bruce was such an untrusting bastard that he nearly destroyed not one but two different superhero teams? good times)
Whether or not they’re actually up to something shady (and in this case, Kon is wrong as it turns out), Tim and Dick both have that quietly secretive thing learned from Batman. And they both have to deal with being under Batman’s shadow; I mentioned earlier that both have fought with Bruce, and they definitely have, but I can’t think of a time they’ve ever done so publicly.
They both deal with the worry of being seen as purely an extension or lesser copy of Batman, and on a more internal level the worry of becoming like Bruce.
Dick gets more arcs that focus on the former—Possibly because, as the original Robin, this is a big out-of-universe question for his character too. How do you make the character who was Batman’s sidekick for 40 years, who was created long before the idea of sidekicks growing up ever existed, his own man and able to stand out from under the shadow of the Bat? (answer: turns out it’s actually pretty easy if he becomes wildly popular and beloved in his own right)
Tim gets more arcs that focus on the latter—possibly because, as a teenage character who was more or less in a long-form coming of age story during his time as Robin, there was still a sense that who he would become in the future wasn’t set in stone and his personality would continue to shift and grow.
But both of them ultimately want to be their own person, and much as they love him, neither of them want to become like Bruce. Or to make this parallel absolutely explicit:
[Tim’s narration: “Here’s the thing: no one can predict their own future. The best a guy can do is to look to those who’ve been much longer on the same path as him, and see what a life of walking that path has done for them. For me, those people are Bruce and Dick. You see what I’m getting at? Bruce has been on the job the longest. It’s slowly driven him mad and eaten the human part right out of him. But what about Dick? Surely a guy like him can’t dedicate himself to this line of work and keep a level head on his shoulders? I wanna yell “He can!” but I can’t forget the glimpses I’ve seen recently of the same kind of monster eating at Dick, too. Little things that, looking back now, I can remember seeing in Bruce a few years ago. Should I call them “early warning signs”? Do I dare to assume it’s a disease I can’t catch with time?” | (Robin #100)]
On the bright side, Dick and Tim aren’t Bruce. They are, as noted, both far more social people, prone to far more openness. And because becoming like Batman is always narratively portrayed as a Very Bad Thing for them, that means it’s something that they usually get to fight against and overcome to be happy, healthier people.
[Wally, to Dick: “Don’t stand there blinking at me, Grayson. What do you want, a mission statement? Fine. My mission is to keep you from turning into your guardian. Batman may be a loner, but you need a family around you.” “You’d really join another team just so I could have a social life? You’ll never last.” “Ten bucks says I stick it out longer than you do.” | (Titans #1)]
[Tim: “People...You think you know how I feel about Batman? Trust me: right now, you don’t. No, I don’t have files on you. Batman and I are different, believe it or not. I have friends. He has...associates. That’s becoming more and more clear to me… And that’s all I intend to say on the subject.” | (Young Justice #36)]
[Tim: “I realized you were playing with me. But this is me, refusing to play. Did you think I was going to run all around the city, desperately trying to save everyone all by myself? I’m not Batman. I have friends.” | (Red Robin #12)]
(i can’t believe bruce is never around to hear tim roast him like this rip)
So Dick and Tim specifically fight against those Batman-esque impulses by having close friends who they truly love, trust, and can rely on as a support system.
I can throw out lots of other little similarities between them if you like: both preferred public school as you mentioned, both orphans, both traumatized after witnessing their parent(s) death.
They both started with a complicated and not necessarily parent/child relationship with Bruce (Dick and Bruce initially having been just as likely to be referred to as brothers; Tim initially having his own living father and a relatively professional relationship with Bruce), and explicitly said Bruce wasn’t their father. They both eventually shifted in their feelings and later considered Bruce their dad.
They both still love and care deeply about their original fathers, and rarely actually refer to Bruce as “dad”. They both lived with Bruce long before being officially adopted (Dick as his “ward” and only adopted as an adult; Tim living with him temporarily while his parents were away or comatose and adopted after his original dad died).
They both were unwillingly stopped from being Robin once temporarily (Dick fired in Robin: Year One; Tim forced to quit by his dad) before later returning to the role. They were both later permanently fired from the role by the current Batman, and extremely upset about being replaced. They both are consistent and reliable parts of the bat-team, except for a single period after they were fired and spent time away (Dick with the Titans in NYC; Tim around the world looking for evidence Bruce was alive).
…and so on and so forth.
(The fanon note to end this post is that they each have a tendency to get wildly exaggerated by fans to the point of getting flaws they never had in canon—but in completely opposite directions: Dick gets flanderized into a perpetually cheerful, ever caring, lynchpin of the family; often with the entirely non-canon flaws of being stupid, oblivious, and/or overbearing; often without his more serious, workaholic, clever, or occasionally manipulative side. Tim gets flanderized into a perpetually depressed, genius-level IQ, uber-workaholic control-freak; often with the entirely non-canon flaws of being socially anxious, paranoid and untrusting, and/or entirely unwilling to take care of himself at a basic level; often without his more social, trusting, goofy, or occasionally cocky side.)
In conclusion, Dick and Tim definitely have differences and qualities unique to each of them, but they’re more similar than they are different and also I can’t believe I am writing long analyses of fictional media on tumblr dot com but it turns out i miss writing essays and have lots of Thoughts.
thank you for asking, the void.
Dick Grayson Comics Timeline
Alright upon request (and after much compiling) I’m finally done with this pre New 52, fully referenced, Dick Grayson timeline @chestnutcats. It’s super long, so a short version here:
Parents die; becomes Bruce’s ward & Robin. Age: somewhere from 8-13, but usually on the younger end of that scale
Forms Teen Titans. Age: …teen?
(Barbara becomes Batgirl. Could be swapped with the above.)
Teen Titans split up. Age: <=18
Goes to college. Drops out of college. Age: college.
New Teen Titans form in NYC. Age: 19ish
Fired as Robin. No longer taking to Bruce. Fully living in NYC with the Titans, if he wasn’t already. Becomes Nightwing. (Jason becomes Robin.) Age: 19; Jason is 12
(Barbara shot. Jason killed. Tim becomes Robin. Talking to Bruce again. Age: 19 + however long Jason was Robin, so maybe 22. Tim is 13. Does Tim’s backstory make sense if he’s 9 years younger than Dick? Probably not, but writers don’t do math!)
New Teen Titans split up. Age: early 20s
Chillin’ as Nightwing, location unknown
Briefly Batman, with Robin Tim. Age: 20s, and age no longer matters. Tim is 14 or maybe 15, and the only hope we have of keeping the years straight.
Chillin’ as Nightwing, pt 2
Moves to Bludhaven. Helps out when things ultra-suck in Gotham.
Titans re-form.
(Gotham ultra-sucks for a while because Earthquakes and Government. Cass becomes Batgirl.)
Officially adopted by Bruce.
Titans split up. Reluctantly joins the Outsiders.
Everything Is Very Bad. Age: Tim is 16 by now, but comic book math is whatever you want it to be, and you needn’t be beholden to things like “numbers.” Dick is in his 20s, as he will be forever.
(Tim has to quit Robin; Steph becomes Robin; Steph fired; Tim Robin again; Steph “dies”.)
Jason returns, and then vanishes again.
The universe kind of explodes and then un-explodes. Bludhaven explodes and remains exploded. (Age: Tim is still 16, but eons have passed.)
Bruce & Dick & Tim go travelling for a year because fuck it.
Moves to NYC again. (Tim adopted. Damian first introduced. Age: Tim logically must be 17, and Dick is logically in his mid 20s, but logic never helped anyone.)
Leaves Outsiders.
Titans re-re-form.
(Steph returns, revealed to be not dead. Cass adopted.)
Leaves Titans.
Universe explodes again. Bruce (apparently) dies.
nananananana BATMAN (ft Damian as Robin). Tim off as Red Robin. Jason causing mayhem. Age: just about the same age Bruce was when he met Dick, and ain’t that a trip
Bruce returns.
The long version is under the cut, and by long version, I mean like 20 pages which is…possibly more than you wanted and surely more than you expected, but here we are.
This is half timeline, half reading list. The comics referenced here have occasional notes based on quality, but they’re mostly chosen based on giving you the major points and the best understanding of continuity. This is all firmly pre-flashpoint, because I Do Not Know the new52 or anything beyond, and also comes with the disclaimer that my chronological read-through has only reached 2009 and so the last section of this is suddenly a lot less thorough than the rest.
If anyone reading this wants more detail on any bit of it (whether specific comics and issues, timelines, character relationships, or what have you), or more info on a different character, I am happy to answer questions!!
If read mores don’t work for you, a person seeing this post…I am so sorry and just start scrolling.
Keep reading
MYTHOLOGY MEME
[Bonus] 1/11 Figures NOT from Western Europe: Pele
The Hawai'ian goddess of volcanoes, fire, lightning, lava, and dance.
MYTHOLOGY MEME
1/4 Titans Mortals: Helen of Troy
The wife of Menelaus, king of Sparta, Helen was the most beautiful woman in the world. Paris, prince of Troy, brought her back with him, starting the Trojan War. Some stories say Paris kidnapped her, others say she went willingly, but either way, Helen is a woman whose beauty burnt an entire city to the ground.
MYTHOLOGY MEME
2/2 Mythological Objects: Yggdrasil
The world tree, Yggdrasil is an immense ash tree that connects the nine realms.
MYTHOLOGY MEME
1/2 Mythological Objects: Excalibur
The sword of King Arthur, given to him by the Lady of the Lake and returned to her upon Arthur's death.
